Jack Wolf Knives - Back on Track

Arathol said:
Heres the thing - while this rule is seemingly enforced across the entire forum, those stickies don't seem to be posted everywhere. As I mentioned before, the general rules that are linked to in every subforum (and in the posts above) don't mention this...maybe they should.
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It's a rule in the Traditional Forum and the post in question is by Jack Wolf Knives that he posted in the Traditional Forum. Whether it's a rule across all of Blade Forums or not doesn't matter. It wasn't appropriate in Traditional.

Not worth getting in a p---ing contest over.
 
The obvious comparison for these are the slipjoints that Lionsteel makes. The Lionsteel knives look to be about half the price though.

Both brands use M390 for blades, titanium bolsters/hardware, micarta and other modern materials for scales, screw construction.

What do these knives have that make them worth two Lionsteel knives?
 
Norcaldude said:
The obvious comparison for these are the slipjoints that Lionsteel makes. The Lionsteel knives look to be about half the price though.

Both brands use M390 for blades, titanium bolsters/hardware, micarta and other modern materials for scales, screw construction.

What do these knives have that make them worth two Lionsteel knives?
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This is a good question. The Italians do in fact make a fine knife for less money in the same materials. No doubt about that. But there are substantial differences in fit and finish and the amount of hand labor involved in those knives versus these. For example, I believe the blades on Italian knives are machine ground, these are hand ground. Italian knives are typically thinner blade stock (.090) and flat ground. These are thicker stock (.120) with a high hollow grind and have a nice belt finish. Italian knives are not hafted, these are. Take a look at any production Italian Slipjoint. you will find crowned liners, crowned springs, and a crowned spine that meets the spring with chamfers on both the spring and spine. All these crowns and chamfers are performed to hide the fact that the parts are not all flat and flush with each other. The parts on those knives are pulled from parts bins and rapidly assembled. On my knives, parts are assembled and then finish ground as an assembly, a process called hafting. This creates the seamless transitions between the materials and the flat and flush spring in all 3 positions. Once hafting is performed, the parts of that knife are mated to each other and cannot be swapped around. In fact they are numbered underneath the scale. So for the extra money, you are getting a hand made knife (where it really counts) with fit and finish that exceeds the Italian knives. As a consumer, it just depends on what you want. If you want a great value with good performance and you don't care as much about fit and finish, an Italian is great. If you want the fit and finish of a handmade knife that can rival custom knives at twice the the price, seamless material transitions, flat and flush springs, and the exceptional performance of a thin hollow grind with a nice belt finish, that is what I have to offer. Because of the skilled labor involved, I am willing to bet that these are substantially more costly to produce than the Italian knives, hence the price difference. And I can promise you this: after the dealer margin and a reasonable margin for myself to make the project worth doing, there is no gouging going on here. In fact I believe it is a great value for the quality and extras you are getting, but of course this is my biased opinion. I hope that answers your question!
 
Jack Wolf Knives said:
This is a good question. The Italians do in fact make a fine knife for less money in the same materials. No doubt about that. But there are substantial differences in fit and finish and the amount of hand labor involved in those knives versus these. For example, I believe the blades on Italian knives are machine ground, these are hand ground. Italian knives are typically thinner blade stock (.090) and flat ground. These are thicker stock (.120) with a high hollow grind and have a nice belt finish. Italian knives are not hafted, these are. Take a look at any production Italian Slipjoint. you will find crowned liners, crowned springs, and a crowned spine that meets the spring with chamfers on both the spring and spine. All these crowns and chamfers are performed to hide the fact that the parts are not all flat and flush with each other. The parts on those knives are pulled from parts bins and rapidly assembled. On my knives, parts are assembled and then finish ground as an assembly, a process called hafting. This creates the seamless transitions between the materials and the flat and flush spring in all 3 positions. Once hafting is performed, the parts of that knife are mated to each other and cannot be swapped around. In fact they are numbered underneath the scale. So for the extra money, you are getting a hand made knife (where it really counts) with fit and finish that exceeds the Italian knives. As a consumer, it just depends on what you want. If you want a great value with good performance and you don't care as much about fit and finish, an Italian is great. If you want the fit and finish of a handmade knife that can rival custom knives at twice the the price, seamless material transitions, flat and flush springs, and the exceptional performance of a thin hollow grind with a nice belt finish, that is what I have to offer. Because of the skilled labor involved, I am willing to bet that these are substantially more costly to produce than the Italian knives, hence the price difference. And I can promise you this: after the dealer margin and a reasonable margin for myself to make the project worth doing, there is no gouging going on here. In fact I believe it is a great value for the quality and extras you are getting, but of course this is my biased opinion. I hope that answers your question!
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Maybe you can show some more detailed pictures of these areas with the hand fitting so everyone can see what you are talking about?
 
Jack Wolf Knives said:
Take a look at any production Italian Slipjoint. you will find crowned liners, crowned springs, and a crowned spine that meets the spring with chamfers on both the spring and spine.
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And those crowned liners,springs, and spines have been well received here at BF by those who have purchased Italian knives. Many reviews have highlighted this feature. I know I like the crowned/rounded spine of our 2020 Blade Forums Knife very much.

I will say though that the top knife you pictured with the mottled covers looks good.

Oh, I've just been razzing you about the Prop. 65 thing. Just take it with a grain of salt. What got me started on it is that the big dealer in Tennessee doesn't send their catalog to California because of the Prop. 65 Warning they'd have to note throughout the catalog; however, any knife they send to California has a Prop. 65 Warning label on the knifes packaging - go figure. I barely get anything from them because of it.
 
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unwisefool said:
Maybe you can show some more detailed pictures of these areas with the hand fitting so everyone can see what you are talking about?
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Hey there unwisefool, Look at post #62 in the thread, there are close up pictures of one of the knives there, and also a video which you should set to the highest resolution to get the best image. Notice how the transitions between materials are extremely well done, especially the spring and liners. Also, you can't really see it in the pictures but the spring is flat and flush in all 3 positions.

There are many other posts down the thread with detailed pictures and also videos that I think illustrate the point. But if you want to see something specific, let me know, I am happy to produce some content and oblige.
 
Modoc ED said:
What got me started on it is that the big dealer in Tennessee doesn't send their catalog to California because of the Prop. 65 Warning they'd have to note throughout the catalog; however, any knife they send to California has a Prop. 65 Warning label on the knifes packaging - go figure. I barely get anything from them because of it.
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So if its not printed on the box, but just a sticker, does that sticker need a Prop 65 warning on it too?
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Jack Wolf Knives said:
This is a good question. The Italians do in fact make a fine knife for less money in the same materials. No doubt about that. But there are substantial differences in fit and finish and the amount of hand labor involved in those knives versus these. For example, I believe the blades on Italian knives are machine ground, these are hand ground. Italian knives are typically thinner blade stock (.090) and flat ground. These are thicker stock (.120) with a high hollow grind and have a nice belt finish. Italian knives are not hafted, these are. Take a look at any production Italian Slipjoint. you will find crowned liners, crowned springs, and a crowned spine that meets the spring with chamfers on both the spring and spine. All these crowns and chamfers are performed to hide the fact that the parts are not all flat and flush with each other. The parts on those knives are pulled from parts bins and rapidly assembled. On my knives, parts are assembled and then finish ground as an assembly, a process called hafting. This creates the seamless transitions between the materials and the flat and flush spring in all 3 positions. Once hafting is performed, the parts of that knife are mated to each other and cannot be swapped around. In fact they are numbered underneath the scale. So for the extra money, you are getting a hand made knife (where it really counts) with fit and finish that exceeds the Italian knives. As a consumer, it just depends on what you want. If you want a great value with good performance and you don't care as much about fit and finish, an Italian is great. If you want the fit and finish of a handmade knife that can rival custom knives at twice the the price, seamless material transitions, flat and flush springs, and the exceptional performance of a thin hollow grind with a nice belt finish, that is what I have to offer. Because of the skilled labor involved, I am willing to bet that these are substantially more costly to produce than the Italian knives, hence the price difference. And I can promise you this: after the dealer margin and a reasonable margin for myself to make the project worth doing, there is no gouging going on here. In fact I believe it is a great value for the quality and extras you are getting, but of course this is my biased opinion. I hope that answers your question!
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I really like most of what I read here (you left out the integral bolster though). :)

However, when I got to the part about the thicker blade stock, .090" on the Italian slipjoints vs the .120" on yours... You kind of lost me. I already think that the Italian slipjoints are too thick. Stepping up to the thickness of a Sebenza or Spartan SHF (both considered hard use knives), is just way too much in my opinion... Hollow grind or not.
 
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Modoc ED said:
And those crowned liners,springs, and spines have been well received here at BF by those who have purchased Italian knives. Many reviews have highlighted this feature. I know I like the crowned/rounded spine of our 2020 Blade Forums Knife very much.

I will say though that the top knife you pictured with the mottled covers looks good.

Oh, I've just been razzing you about the Prop. 65 thing. Just take it with a grain of salt. What got me started on it is that the big dealer in Tennessee doesn't send their catalog to California because of the Prop. 65 Warning they'd have to note throughout the catalog; however, any knife they send to California has a Prop. 65 Warning label on the knifes packaging - go figure. I barely get anything from them because of it.
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Don't get me wrong. I am not dissing the crowned liners, springs and blades. It is a cool touch and I am glad you like it. It is definitely a clever way to finish those areas without the skilled labor and expense of hafting, while facilitating mass production. And it is a nice touch that people attribute to the Italians. I am more influenced by the hafting found on GEC and on the customs I own, so that is what I wanted for my product line.

The mottled covers are Fat Carbon Dark Matter Blue and they are are getting a great response.

If you really are razzing me about prop 65, then touché, because you sir are a legend in the ball busting game.
 
Fixall said:
I really like most of what I read here (you left out the integral bolster though). :)

However, when I got to the part about the thicker blade stock, .090" on the Italian slipjoints vs the .120" on yours... You kind of lost me. I already think that the Italian slipjoints are too thick. Stepping up to the thickness of a Sebenza or Spartan SHF (both considered hard use knives), is just way too much in my opinion... Hollow grind or not.
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First off, yes, integral bolsters are still a feature and that will definitely not change!

Now I do understand what you are saying about the blade stock. As we know, the purpose of a slipjoint is to slice and cut, not pry and wedge. This was VERY IMPORTANT to me. I do have several customs that use 120 stock, from both Pena and Romano. The cutting geometry is phenomenal, and it really has everything to do with the high hollow grind. Not all hollow grinds are created equal. And my blades are very thin a long way up the knife. If you look at previous page, you will see I took a behind the edge measurement of nine thousands of an inch. That is extremely thin. You can actually flex these blades a little, but not to the point where they feel like they are too thin. So all I ask is this: do not judge the performance of these blades on the stock thickness alone. If you have a chance to handle one, I think you will see what I mean. And if you don't have a chance to handle one, there will also be several YouTube reviews out there that illustrate this point. But at the end of the day, if my design is not sound, I can always move to thinner stock.
 
Jack Wolf Knives Jack Wolf Knives Benjamin, I'd like to commend you for taking some of this heat like a champ - it's hard to remain unflappable on the Internet these days. Some folks here may not know or even remember but when Mike first introduced the first LionSteel Euro Barlow, he took a fair bit of heat too - these "modern traditionals" being a rather divisive subject in these parts.

I contend that there is a place on "The Porch" for this evolution of traditionally inspired slipjoints and though your OEM manufacturer still remains a potential sticking point for me, I still welcome your efforts to our little corner here. Objectively, the knives look excellently made and the designs are quite compelling. Though I am not much into carbon fiber, that Dark Matter Blue is real good looking stuff - I look forward to seeing what other cover materials you end introducing.

I also love the branding with that whole almost-Comic-book vibe you have going on. It reminds me of the classic boys knives you could get back in the day and some of the artwork associated with them. I love your approach, it's going to be fun seeing what you do with your other models.
 
unwisefool said:
Maybe you can show some more detailed pictures of these areas with the hand fitting so everyone can see what you are talking about?
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What he is getting at is this - the blade and handles are assembled, and the spring and tang are ground as one so they sit perfectly flush with the bolsters, like this-
mWCeWVT.jpg

AG Russells Chinese made folders have been built like this for some time now.
Fixall said:
I really like most of what I read here (you left out the integral bolster though). :)

However, when I got to the part about the thicker blade stock, .090" on the Italian slipjoints vs the .120" on yours... You kind of lost me. I already think that the Italian slipjoints are too thick. Stepping up to the thickness of a Sebenza or Spartan SHF (both considered hard use knives), is just way too much in my opinion... Hollow grind or not.
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That seems to be a thing with Chinese knives. Most of the knives I have that are made in China are .120 or close thereabouts, and some are more. The AG sunfish above is .22, the thinnest I have seen so far is the Twosun 123 at .0875.

I've never heard of the term hafting used to describe that process. Hafting generally refers to installing a handle on a knife or an axe, not grinding the spring for fit and finish reasons.
 
Pàdruig said:
Jack Wolf Knives Jack Wolf Knives Benjamin, I'd like to commend you for taking some of this heat like a champ - it's hard to remain unflappable on the Internet these days. Some folks here may not know or even remember but when Mike first introduced the first LionSteel Euro Barlow, he took a fair bit of heat too - these "modern traditionals" being a rather divisive subject in these parts.

I contend that there is a place on "The Porch" for this evolution of traditionally inspired slipjoints and though your OEM manufacturer still remains a potential sticking point for me, I still welcome your efforts to our little corner here. Objectively, the knives look excellently made and the designs are quite compelling. Though I am not much into carbon fiber, that Dark Matter Blue is real good looking stuff - I look forward to seeing what other cover materials you end introducing.

I also love the branding with that whole almost-Comic-book vibe you have going on. It reminds me of the classic boys knives you could get back in the day and some of the artwork associated with them. I love your approach, it's going to be fun seeing what you do with your other models.
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Hi Dylan,

Thank you sir for the kind words. I've been in business long enough to learn that a hot head only leaves me with a burnt hat ;)

Indeed modern traditionals can be divisive, so I am pleased you see room for them in our niche of the overall knife community. I really want to do the traditional Slipjoint patterns justice, in modern dress. What's been extremely rewarding so far, is how many guys who say they "aren't slipjoint guys", telling me they want to buy these. That really floats my boat, because I know once they get intoxicated by the walk and talk and cutting performance of a good slipjoint, they will inevitably want something more traditional in their collections. And then, we've got 'em!

The products made by Fat Carbon really do appeal to me and I am glad they are being well received. It is a level above and beyond the typical carbon fiber variants we've been seeing for years. I get mesmerized by it!

Lastly, thanks for picking up the vibe! The artist I hired is indeed a comic book artist who has done work for Marvel and other outlets. And the plan is to update the artwork for each production run; keeping the art appreciation experience at an all time high. While at the same time, paying homage to how traditional knives were historically packaged.

-Ben
 
Arathol said:
What he is getting at is this - the blade and handles are assembled, and the spring and tang are ground as one so they sit perfectly flush with the bolsters, like this-
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Yeah I understood, I was just suggesting he add pictures to illustrate what he's talking about for potential customers.
 
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