Jimislash has a new Competition Chopper

[Sharp & Fiery]

I’m not demanding recognition. I’m just stating that someone else is getting credit for work I did. It may be legally acceptable to do this but most find it distasteful. I worked for Cold Steel when Lynn was the owner, I was a paid designer, not doing contract work. Lynn gave me credit for every design I did while employed. For a company that claims to want to continue Lynn’s legacy I would assume GSM would do the same. I guess I know what happens when you assume.
Oh and no apologies necessary. You are invited to comment and question.

I will always apologize if I make a wrong assumption. It’s the right thing to do. Being wrong is part of life (unfortunately), so I recant my comment about your demands.

Thank you for responding professionally. That goes a long way.

I do understand your stance a little more clearly after your last post. Thank you.
I most definitely agree that it’s not the greatest feeling to have someone else to lay claim to the work you have done.

However, I do stand by my opinion that the two aren’t the same knife. There are enough differences, however subtle, that make them different in my mind.
That doesn’t mean that this whole situation doesn’t suck though.

I would advise to just move onto better things. Also, if Cold Steel is saying that they aren’t laying claim to your original design, and it isn’t even close to theirs, does this mean you can make them yourself without infringement?
Just a thought.

 

[Josephldoyle]

Simple answer... it was decided most people just throw away the lefty clip and since material cost were spiraling out of control the additional clip was removed. This decision was made by the original Cold Steel team prior to the acquisition, however, we also agreed with their decision and did not add the lefty clip back in.

Then why not transition to all ambidextrous clips? Or make these clips available for left handed customers?

These are the gaps in the customer experience that many dedicated customers like myself have mentioned.

A Carbon V Trailmaster was my first serious knife purchase. I drifted away from Cold Steel for years, and I quite honestly became bored with the entire knife industry. The 3 brands that I collected had become stale. I purchased an SR1 on a whim and was blown away. I immediately started amassing a large Cold Steel collection and carry a Cold Steel folder daily.

I say this because I am a Cold Steel super user. I pretty much use Cold Steel exclusively. As I mentioned earlier, I was prepared for the quality to diminish after the GSM purchase. I have been pleasantly surprised that the fit and finish have been flawless one every post-GSM knife that I have purchased.

The quality is there. I don’t even mind the price increases, because the strength and durability of Cold Steel is often worth it, imho. However, in order to have a knife enthusiast fork over the money for many of your models, they want a similar level of service to other knife manufacturers in that price range.

Sell all the blister pack knives at big box stores that you can. Other knife companies do it. But, realize that someone shelling out north of a hundred bucks on a folding knife (or 400 on a fixed blade) is going to expect a different level of service than someone who buys what is basically a disposable knife at Walmart. I want a spear point Recon 1 to go along with my other 5 Recon 1’s. However, I am hesitant to purchase one because I know that a broken clip or lost screw cannot be resolved by the company.

Perhaps a new thread is needed for these topics to avoid hijacking this one?

 

[Wallace Edged Tools]

https://imgur.com/a/FnJ0lEe

Just since we are being so transparent.

 

[jbmonkey]

It certainly would help if Jimislash would chime in but seeing as though he knows this thread exists and won't comment, well that says a lot to me. I'm solidly on the side of Wallace Edged Tools from the evidence I've seen.

As if that situation isn't bad enough, I find it absolutely horrifying that the company who has brought us some of the strongest, highest quality knives ever came into this thread and questioned the legitimate criticism our members had over this garbage below, even claiming "they are damn nice for the price". For someone concerned about the future quality of the company, that's scary stuff to hear from a higher up.

^that gal there summed it up about perfect and as short and sweet as one could, there......

 

[Wallace Edged Tools]

The above post #203 (with emails from Jimislash) show why some changes were obviously made. Like blade thickness, weight, etc… that were in Shaun’s post #172
Blade changes:

1 Thicker stock. I suggested that in the beginning and was told no, just use what I have which was 1/4”

2 Dropping the bevel height by 1/4” is a stretch for calling out a change.

3 That weight gain would minimal at best.

4 That is preference and not really a design change. So if I produce the Engage but changed the cutting edge angle I’d be ok? Asking for a friend..

5 The spine radius change is hardly noticeable by both the eye and the scale.
Most of these changes are merely cosmetic with negligible weight gains. Some would be omitted if I would have been able to make a proper sample (thicker steel) to begin with.

Handle changes:
1-5 These were all based from my original sample. Without it there’d be no basis in which to go from.
The handle drop was also suggested and was implemented in some of my concept sketches. I was told the design team liked the “look” of the concept and prototype I submitted. Most agree a dropped handle is better for a competition chopper.
6 Removal of a rivet (which is actually a flare tube by the way) hardly increases grip area. This was probably the manufacturer saying it wasn’t necessary. I just always put three tubes in my knives.

 

[Juan Lopez]

I wonder who's gonna be the designer of the next "Jimislash knife"?

 

[dogstar]

Hello Everyone,

I hope everyone had a blessed Thanksgiving. For transparency’s sake and since people have been asking for a more detailed description of the changes, I asked one of the designers involved (yes one of the other spiderman) on this project to provide the follow details.

Also, please note this Chopper is still in development and will undergo a few more changes before final production. We are still in the process of incorporating all of the changes requested by the Blade Sports testing team and Jimi has requested further modification on the handle after testing during his past competition.

Please note, we have asked Jimi not to respond to this thread.

Blade changes: all these changes were made at the request of Jimi (Shown in Blue).

1. The blade thickness was increased to increase overall weight
2. Bevel height was adjusted to add more weight in front of the handle
3. False edge was made shallower to add more weight in front of the handle
4. The cutting edge angle was adjusted based on tests done by Jimi
5. The shape of the spine in the top left corner was adjusted to add more weight in front of the handle while staying within BladeSports requirements.

Handle changes: all these changes were made at the request of Jimi (Shown in Green)

1. The handles silhouette/outline was completely change. 3D printed prototypes were supplied to Jimi for his input and approval.
2. The 3D profile of the Handle was completely changed. The handle was made thicker with more contouring to allow for a better grip and better prevent the blade from rolling in the hand.
3. The front of the handle was lowered to cover the 90deg edges of the blade tang
4. Handle material was changed to Kray-ex for better grip
5. Handle texture was adjusted for better grip
6. Rivet was removed from the middle of the handle to allow for a more even grip area

(If someone can tell me how to imbed images into the thread itself, I would be very grateful. )--- Thank you Lee

What you are showing here is optimization. It is a part of the design process, but I would not assign the bulk of the credit to the optimizer(s). To optimize, you need an original design. Where did that original come from? Mr. Wallace.

I would say the handle shows the most modification, but even then, Mr. Slash only commented on someone else's prototype. And, Kray-ex? 99% of CS fixed blades use that
material, so I would say it was hardly even a "choice."

I appreciate your candor in sharing this with us. I know that both sides have dug their heels in, and there is no recanting to be done. The folks on this forum are pretty sharp, so I'm sure most of them will reach the right conclusion.

To say the least, this episode has added to the bad taste I already had in my mouth.

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

consistently witnessed from Lynn Thompson is an overly zealous attempt to ascribe design credit. Many of the custom makers who designed for Cold Steel I'd never heard of until they appeared in the Cold Steel catalogs, including several who would become famous because of their Cold Steel knives.


-Steve

This ^^^^^^^^^^^.

One of the many reasons I started collecting Cold Steel. When I would look at the catalogs, lusting after the newest knife, I always respected / trusted Cold Steel because they gave credit where credit is due. Read the vintage catalogs, the credit is right there in the text for all to read.

GSM has vividly shown me they do not respect the people that work for them ["weather or not this information was relayed to you is not my concern" - Shawn Cazin, Post # 178].

A company like this does not receive my support, nor my money.

 

[killgar]

Let me preface this post by saying that I believe everyone who has participated in this thread has a reasonable perspective on the matter. No one is suggesting that Cold Steel or Jimislash has committed any crimes against humanity, or taken food out of the mouths of Mr. Wallace's children, lest anyone suggest that we have blown this matter out of proportion.

This post is on a somewhat different, but directly related topic.

Perhaps something good will come out of all this. At the very least this thread has succeeded in convincing someone from Cold Steel to visit this forum, someone who appears to be in a position to actually answer questions. And although we may not like the answers, it's more than we had before. So congrats on that, we'll see how long it lasts, and if it proves to be of any real value.

My hope is that from reading the posts in this thread, and others in this sub-forum, that our visitor from Cold Steel, and perhaps the company, will gain some insight into the mentality of at least a segment of the Cold Steel buying public. And although we who frequent this sub-forum may be a minority, we buy Cold Steel products, and many have purchased several (I have purchased fifteen CS knives, 14 over the past 8 years, and never returned a single one).

For the most part, the members of this forum are serious knife enthusiasts. Not overly serious, by "serious" what I mean is we don't buy knives just because they look cool, or because some internet celebrity endorses them.

The members of this forum are mostly mature adults, many in their 50's, 60's and even 70's. But members of all ages here place a high value on things like quality and customer service. And although old-world values have been abandoned by many in this world, they are alive and well here at Bladeforums. The members here still care about things like loyalty, treating the customer right, and company integrity.

When we buy a knife, we put a lot of thought, time, and research into our purchase, and we want to know that the company that sold it will stand behind their product. We want to know that when we contact them with a problem with their product that they will make it right, and not just give us the brush-off, or some carefully crafted corporate excuse.

Because when we feel that a company is only interested in taking our money, with no real concern for our satisfaction, and an empty void where customer service should be, many will spend their money elsewhere.

As longtime fans and buyers of Cold Steel products, ones who have frequently promoted Cold Steel and convinced countless others to buy their knives, we aren't looking for any special treatment, or discounts, or anything unreasonable, what we want is a company that values us as loyal customers, and brand ambassadors, as much as we value the Cold Steel products we buy.

Like I said, maybe something good will come out of all this. One can hope.

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

Let me preface this post by saying that I believe everyone who has participated in this thread has a reasonable perspective on the matter. No one is suggesting that Cold Steel or Jimislash has committed any crimes against humanity, or taken food out of the mouths of Mr. Wallace's children, lest anyone suggest that we have blown this matter out of proportion.

This post is on a somewhat different, but directly related topic.

Perhaps something good will come out of all this. At the very least this thread has succeeded in convincing someone from Cold Steel to visit this forum, someone who appears to be in a position to actually answer questions. And although we may not like the answers, it's more than we had before. So congrats on that, we'll see how long it lasts, and if it proves to be of any real value.

My hope is that from reading the posts in this thread, and others in this sub-forum, that our visitor from Cold Steel, and perhaps the company, will gain some insight into the mentality of at least a segment of the Cold Steel buying public. And although we who frequent this sub-forum may be a minority, we buy Cold Steel products, and many have purchased several (I have purchased fifteen CS knives, 14 over the past 8 years, and never returned a single one).

For the most part, the members of this forum are serious knife enthusiasts. Not overly serious, by "serious" what I mean is we don't buy knives just because they look cool, or because some internet celebrity endorses them.

The members of this forum are mostly mature adults, many in their 50's, 60's and even 70's. But members of all ages here place a high value on things like quality and customer service. And although old-world values have been abandoned by many in this world, they are alive and well here at Bladeforums. The members here still care about things like loyalty, treating the customer right, and company integrity.

When we buy a knife, we put a lot of thought, time, and research into our purchase, and we want to know that the company that sold it will stand behind their product. We want to know that when we contact them with a problem with their product that they will make it right, and not just give us the brush-off, or some carefully crafted corporate excuse.

Because when we feel that a company is only interested in taking our money, with no real concern for our satisfaction, and an empty void where customer service should be, many will spend their money elsewhere.

As longtime fans and buyers of Cold Steel products, ones who have frequently promoted Cold Steel and convinced countless others to buy their knives, we aren't looking for any special treatment, or discounts, or anything unreasonable, what we want is a company that values us as loyal customers, and brand ambassadors, as much as we value the Cold Steel products we buy.

Like I said, maybe something good will come out of all this. One can hope.

AMEN !

 

[Inspector Lestrade]

I have a post waiting on MOD approval that will show the initial prototype vs the most current version.

Lol.

I asked if you had version 2 and 3 to show us, and you answered "we have version 1 and 4 to show you". That doesn't answer my question. Don't give me corporate bullshit answers.

Having 2 versions doesn't prove that you went through any "iterations".

Do you have a v2 and v3 to show, showing a progression of changes based on feedback?

 

[w.deast]

I don't get it. Cold Steel employs people to design knives. Cold Steel manufactures knives. Cold Steel markets and sells knives. At least word got out that Wallace Edged Tools also sells knives.

 

[dogstar]

I don't get it. Cold Steel employs people to design knives. Cold Steel manufactures knives. Cold Steel markets and sells knives. At least word got out that Wallace Edged Tools also sells knives.

You are not wrong; in the grand scheme of things, that is all this is. But it is also about how companies treat employees, whether they treat them with respect, or like dirt.

 

[craytab]

Also the Atlas “borrowed” heavily from the Demko Shark Lock, with just enough changes to avoid patent infringement. You may or may not know l was making all the wire cut parts and samples for the Atlas lock knives. So I believe I’m very competent to speak to this.

And you were fine doing that work changing just enough about a design to avoid patent infringement? Does it shock you when the same is done to your design?

Look, you were an employee on payroll at a company. You signed up for that knowing anything you do for them is not yours, it is theirs. They used your work as a prototype, made some changes, and slapped someone else's name on it. Does it suck? Sure. Is it out of the norm in big business? Not at all. I think a lot of what you are doing here is complaining about corporate culture. Unfortunately, it is starting to come across as a bit petty at this point.

If anything, this just sheds some light on how dirty the knife industry can be. Companies using influencers, the media, and sport sponsorship to buy their way into credibility after failing miserably at the basics of running a business. No one looks good here IMO.

 

[dogstar]

And you were fine doing that work changing just enough about a design to avoid patent infringement? Does it shock you when the same is done to your design?

Look, you were an employee on payroll at a company. You signed up for that knowing anything you do for them is not yours, it is theirs. They used your work as a prototype, made some changes, and slapped someone else's name on it. Does it suck? Sure. Is it out of the norm in big business? Not at all. I think a lot of what you are doing here is complaining about corporate culture. Unfortunately, it is starting to come across as a bit petty at this point.

If anything, this just sheds some light on how dirty the knife industry can be. Companies using influencers, the media, and sport sponsorship to buy their way into credibility after failing miserably at the basics of running a business. No one looks good here IMO.

I agree with your post. But, corporations don't always have to suck, do they? We need more companies with integrity.

 

[craytab]

I agree with your post. But, corporations don't always have to suck, do they? We need more companies with integrity.

Okay, but imagine a world where every company lists off every person who designed an element to every product. I mean, where do we want the line drawn on giving credit?

Further, what's the story of Mr. Wallace's exit from GSM CS? You see a lot of companies giving credit to former employees who go out on their own in the same line of work and as direct competition? Especially when they don't have to and it is reasonably well accepted not to do so? I don't know, this seems like pretty standard stuff.

 

[PeteyTwoPointOne]

... Please note, we have asked Jimi not to respond to this thread ....

 

[dogstar]

Okay, but imagine a world where every company lists off every person who designed an element to every product. I mean, where do we want the line drawn on giving credit?

Further, what's the story of Mr. Wallace's exit from GSM CS? You see a lot of companies giving credit to former employees who go out on their own in the same line of work and as direct competition? Especially when they don't have to and it is reasonably well accepted not to do so? I don't know, this seems like pretty standard stuff.

The whole bit about giving credit is not what I am saying. You're right in that celebrities "design" stuff as a ploy to bump up sales, while the real designers are unsung. But look at what GSM/Jimi did here. They could have just acknowledged that Mr. Wallace was the key contributor when he was on staff, and the product is now endorsed by Mr. Slash. Instead, they tried to minimize Wallace's role and doubled down on the claim that Mr. Slash is the designer of this knife. Like I said before, instead of correcting a mistake, people lack the humility and integrity to do the right thing, and exacerbate the situation.

 

[jlauffer]

My understanding is that Mr Wallace is not actually seeking credit...his issue is with Jimi getting credit for his design. I get that, but I do think that enough things were changed, supposedly at Jimi's request, that it can be argued he deserves some credit. As dogstar says above, they could have both been acknowledged to make it win-win.

 

[Pennlu]

I get the “as a paid designer“ aspect of this situation as it relates to any liability or GSM’s legal right to do what they did. It just seems in really bad taste to take a knife someone designed and made, let someone make a few suggested tweaks, and than slap their name on it. This is in regard to weather the origional designer gets any credit or not as a paid employee.