Junk Steel

[Ankerson]

I think it's completely fine that you have your favorite super steel, but I do think that you're seriously limiting yourself. I could be dead wrong, but I'm guessing that high carbon steels like 1095 have been around for a really long time and I still think that's an awesome steel. I don't think I have any 8cr blades, but I personally love 154CM. Why do I like steels that are lesser than the latest? I don't like spending hours honing my users and I like having a razor edge. I don't have an auto sharpener... everything is by hand.... With my EDC, sometimes I'm scraping crud on concrete, which will dull any steel pretty quick. 154CM sharpens up a heck of a lot faster than a lot of other super steels and I like that. When I get home, I don't want to spend an hour honing my blade. With lesser steels, I can spend 5-10 minutes bringing that razor edge back for the next day.

It doesn't take me any longer to touch up S110V than it does 154CM, and that's freehand...

Just depends on what you are using to sharpen with...

Doesn't take long, usually seconds as in under a minute.

 

[Twistedpair]

When it comes to cheap steel, I don't mind so much.
I buy cheap knives so as to not loose my high $ knives on the "Small Mouth" river.
I have lost some good ones before, and learned a lesson from it.

Cheap knives have their place, steel or not, the "cheapo's" are just that, and get pretty sharp too boot!
I think I will save my good custom knives for another day, on the river at least, and carry me some good China made knives for no more than I will use them............
Deer season is a different story!

A $3 folder from your local 7/11 will get a "Rabid Dog" off of ya!
Better than nothing...................:thumbup:

 

[W.M.B.]

Huh. Really? You must know something that a lot of us don't, then. The last time I picked up my paramilitaries, the CTS-204p one help an edge better than my S30V one.

I would absolutely be able to tell the difference in a blind study between "crap" steels and supersteels. Now, would I be able to tell the difference between CPM-M4 and S90V? Ok yes. But would I be able to tell the difference between M390 and CTS-204p? Probably not.

I think that it's not us guys that use and like supersteels that don't use our knives, but maybe it's the guys who think "crappy" steels are amazing and that so called "supersteels" just don't offer more performance. After all, why would you need the extra performance of S90V when 8cr opens letters just fine?

If you are serious about knives and maintaining them and possess the proper sharpening equipment, difference in sharpening is almost a non-factor (and sometimes easier as less of a burr is formed). So again, why would you want 8cr when other "supersteels" are literally better than it in every way?

I guess I'm not quite sure what you mean by"serious" about knives. I seriously spend far more time and money on knives than is really reasonable, cause I like them. Mine do not need to work any harder than most peoples do. But the ease with which you can achieve an incredible edge on 1095 is what makes it my favorite. Its not a non-factor. It is the factor. I butcher a deer, and a few sheep and goats every year. That is the hardest my knives get worked, generally. But that will dull any knife I have used. 1095 rocks cause you can touch it up on the spot in no time, and get right back to work. You don't fatigue as badly when your knife is really sharp, and 1095 gets really sharp, really easy. Now, if I had a knife that would stay shaving sharp after a day of butchering with no need to sharpen, I would concede it to be better. I am not aware of such a knife. None of my friends own one like that, as far as I know, either. If you do, hey, I'd love to try one out. Till I find one that doesn't need to be re-sharpened, I expect I will continue to favor 1095. Now, if only I could get a leek in 1095...

 

[dogstar]

I regularly use victorinox paring knives with whatever mystery steel their blades are to cut rope, sometimes hundreds of cuts per day. One of my favorite knives to use is a Victorinox Swiss Army Knife. I don't know what kind of steel the blade is made of but they get sharp and stay sharp.

:thumbup:

 

[Twistedpair]

A few of the "Cheapos" that have earned their keep:

Boker Plus Dozier fixed blade missing from this pic.:yawn:
Can't think of a single reason these knives wouldn't be considered for anything.....
I have owned them for at least 15 years, and they have their place, and have earned their keep!
On the cheap!

 

[Pete1977]

I think that it's not us guys that use and like supersteels that don't use our knives, but maybe it's the guys who think "crappy" steels are amazing and that so called "supersteels" just don't offer more performance. After all, why would you need the extra performance of S90V when 8cr opens letters just fine?

I have to LOL at that one. I'll take a softer, tougher steel over a "Super Steel" any day of the week when it comes to serious cutting. When you're splicing knots out of a mile of rope that has sat on the sandy bottom of the ocean for 2 years, S30V may get 3 or 4 extra cuts than 1095, but when both blades are blunted, the 1095 comes right back with even the most rudimentary sharpening equipment. If I can carry half of a diamond pad with me and get a carbon steel blade sharp enough to keep on working, it is the superior steel for my needs.

I don't know what your cutting chores are, but I used my freshly sharpened Byrd with its letter opening 8Cr blade to trim hardened sheets of fiberglass the other day. It was still pretty sharp when I was finished. Then I had to trim some pieces of oak and the Byrd was handy, and when it was dull, I hit it on the $3 Ace Hardware carbide stone I keep on my boat. I don't need to cart proper sharpening equipment around with me to grind away at the latest and greatest steel when 8Cr worked "just fine."

I can't think of the last time I've ever seen M390 or CTS-204p blades in the hands of anyone I know that carry pocket knives and use them hard. But we don't really "use" our knives. LOL

 

[numbersman]

I'm told that the difference between super steels and average steels becomes noticeable when you sharpen them at a more acute angle, which the super steels will tolerate, whereas your average steel would probably chip or crack, at that angle. Based on that, I wasted my time getting a PM 2 in S30V, since I am not going to sharpen it any differently to my Endura. Hence, the extra money I spent is (partly) wasted, since the knife isn't cutting as well as it could. Oh well, its still a nice knife anyway.

 

[Noctis3880]

I have some doubts as to whether S30V would perform notably better, mostly because it and VG-10 tend to be the same hardness range. Maybe if you're comparing VG-10 to CPM-M4, ZDP-189, or M390, all of which would be consistently run harder.

 

[ibute21]

I have to LOL at that one. I'll take a softer, tougher steel over a "Super Steel" any day of the week when it comes to serious cutting. When you're splicing knots out of a mile of rope that has sat on the sandy bottom of the ocean for 2 years, S30V may get 3 or 4 extra cuts than 1095, but when both blades are blunted, the 1095 comes right back with even the most rudimentary sharpening equipment. If I can carry half of a diamond pad with me and get a carbon steel blade sharp enough to keep on working, it is the superior steel for my needs.

I don't know what your cutting chores are, but I used my freshly sharpened Byrd with its letter opening 8Cr blade to trim hardened sheets of fiberglass the other day. It was still pretty sharp when I was finished. Then I had to trim some pieces of oak and the Byrd was handy, and when it was dull, I hit it on the $3 Ace Hardware carbide stone I keep on my boat. I don't need to cart proper sharpening equipment around with me to grind away at the latest and greatest steel when 8Cr worked "just fine."

I can't think of the last time I've ever seen M390 or CTS-204p blades in the hands of anyone I know that carry pocket knives and use them hard. But we don't really "use" our knives. LOL

Shhh don't embarrass him!!! I'll take Emersons 154CM any day of the week over just about any steel. Easy to touch up and gets stupid sharp and if I happen to use it in a pinch on the roof, I know I can strop the rolled edge out.

My brother uses a couple of H1 Spydercos on the farm he works on and uses his belt or a chainsaw file to touch them up. But he doesn't use his knives.

Tell me Strong-Dog. What do you do for a living?

 

[Strong-Dog]

I have to LOL at that one. I'll take a softer, tougher steel over a "Super Steel" any day of the week when it comes to serious cutting. When you're splicing knots out of a mile of rope that has sat on the sandy bottom of the ocean for 2 years, S30V may get 3 or 4 extra cuts than 1095, but when both blades are blunted, the 1095 comes right back with even the most rudimentary sharpening equipment. If I can carry half of a diamond pad with me and get a carbon steel blade sharp enough to keep on working, it is the superior steel for my needs.

I don't know what your cutting chores are, but I used my freshly sharpened Byrd with its letter opening 8Cr blade to trim hardened sheets of fiberglass the other day. It was still pretty sharp when I was finished. Then I had to trim some pieces of oak and the Byrd was handy, and when it was dull, I hit it on the $3 Ace Hardware carbide stone I keep on my boat. I don't need to cart proper sharpening equipment around with me to grind away at the latest and greatest steel when 8Cr worked "just fine."

I can't think of the last time I've ever seen M390 or CTS-204p blades in the hands of anyone I know that carry pocket knives and use them hard. But we don't really "use" our knives. LOL

Great. Another "hard use" guy. What does that even mean? Do you think cutting rope is "hard use"?

Also, softer doesn't automatically equate to tougher.

So let me get this straight. You used your 8cr Bryd knife to trim hardened fiberglass, and you think it was still "pretty sharp" afterwards? I'll have to LOL at that one.

When you are splicing knots out of rope, S30V will get much more than 3 or 4 extra cuts. Rope is very abrasive, and the carbide-rich S30V will definitely out perform the super low carbide 1095. Have you ever actually used S30V and compared them?

This is what it seems like to me. Us "steel snobs", by definition, have tried, tested, and used pretty much every steel from the low end to the high end. On the other hand, it seems like the people that knock supersteels are guys that have little to no experience with them, and think that their uses are so hard that there would be no difference between 1095 and S30V (for example).

 

[Strong-Dog]

Shhh don't embarrass him!!! I'll take Emersons 154CM any day of the week over just about any steel. Easy to touch up and gets stupid sharp and if I happen to use it in a pinch on the roof, I know I can strop the rolled edge out.

My brother uses a couple of H1 Spydercos on the farm he works on and uses his belt or a chainsaw file to touch them up. But he doesn't use his knives.

Tell me Strong-Dog. What do you do for a living?

Yes, he definitely embarrassed me with his lack of knowledge pertaining to simple metallurgy.

I never said your brother doesn't use his knives BTW. But what do I know? After all, I take advantage of the latest steels and sharpening equipment.

What do I do for a living? What do you do for a living? Oh wait, I don't care and don't expect you to tell me because it's non of my business.

It never gets old when people list their "hard use" jobs where they need relatively soft 154cm because they need to be able to strop the rolls out. Have you ever considered something like K390? 3v? Z-Wear? CruWear? Anything that might perform better than what you are currently using?

 

[RedLynx]

I can't think of the last time I've ever seen M390 or CTS-204p blades in the hands of anyone I know that carry pocket knives and use them hard. But we don't really "use" our knives. LOL

Obviously I'm sure we all agree that "hard use" is a very relative term, although possibly we all agree our letter-opening duties probably don't qualify. Beyond that, I'd classify cutting fiberglass sheets or the like as hard use, but that's just me.

For me personally, if I could get a "supersteel" at a value price that would allow me to get a few extra at a reasonable cost, I might try them out. But (again for me personally) a hard use workhorse also needs to be a budget blade for me, so I go with perfectly fine "normal" steels that seem to take an edge very easily and remain sharp after a day's use.

All of that said, it really isn't a factor for me if I have to resharpen or touch up before the day is done. All knives have to be sharpened, and if I need to spend a minute or two at the diamond stones or with various smaller equipment I have whilst out and about, it's really no problem, so [x steel] holding an edge way longer isn't really a selling point for me. Nice, but not a selling point that makes it objectively better to me. That, and like I said, I probably can't get multiples of M390, etc, very cheaply, and that IS a selling point for me.

As an aside (not directed at you or anyone in particular) arguing over who has a harder job or uses knives harder just seems so playground grudge match to me. I've used plenty of these cheaper, lowly steels that have performed extremely well,and a few of the higher ends that do the same. Most of the knives I own do what a knife is supposed to do when I need it to do it and do it well. Some days they don't get put to hard use, and some days they get put through a ringer (even if not to the standards of some other members here).

We all like knives that cut well when we need them to, and some of the non super steels perform that function very well.

 

[RedLynx]

I'm told that the difference between super steels and average steels becomes noticeable when you sharpen them at a more acute angle, which the super steels will tolerate, whereas your average steel would probably chip or crack, at that angle. Based on that, I wasted my time getting a PM 2 in S30V, since I am not going to sharpen it any differently to my Endura. Hence, the extra money I spent is (partly) wasted, since the knife isn't cutting as well as it could. Oh well, its still a nice knife anyway.

I can only comment using my personal experience with this, but I sharpen all of my knives regardless of steel at around a 20 degree angle (I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell me that's wrong and, if I can really get a better edge with a different angle, let me know I guess). None of my average-steel knives have ever chipped or cracked at this (what I'd consider fairly acute angle). I don't want to give you info that may damage your Endura, if I read what you're saying correctly. But I've sharpened my Endura many, many times this way and it hasn't chipped or cracked or in any way received damage from this angle. Just my personal experience.

 

[Noctis3880]

Great. Another "hard use" guy. What does that even mean? Do you think cutting rope is "hard use"?

Sand-covered rope can be considered pretty damn hard. I can actually see the point given that my 583-1 in M390 gets blunted and chipped from cutting onion roots that come with free dirt. I'm honestly not sure whether wear resistance or toughness factors more into cutting stuff with sand and dirt in it, but I'd preferably want CPM-3V for it.

Also, softer doesn't automatically equate to tougher.

Cross-steel comparisons, no. Same steel? It's usually the case.

So let me get this straight. You used your 8cr Bryd knife to trim hardened fiberglass, and you think it was still "pretty sharp" afterwards? I'll have to LOL at that one.

Some people have differing standards on what "sharp" is.

When you are splicing knots out of rope, S30V will get much more than 3 or 4 extra cuts. Rope is very abrasive, and the carbide-rich S30V will definitely out perform the super low carbide 1095. Have you ever actually used S30V and compared them?

Going to have to agree that S30V would get more cuts, provided both knives are HT properly. CRK S30V at Rc 57 might not do so well if the 1095 is Rc 59+. Though I believe testers have revealed that the performance difference really isn't too drastic to the tune of cutting twice as much. Maybe a more modest 10-20% improvement.

This is what it seems like to me. Us "steel snobs", by definition, have tried, tested, and used pretty much every steel from the low end to the high end. On the other hand, it seems like the people that knock supersteels are guys that have little to no experience with them, and think that their uses are so hard that there would be no difference between 1095 and S30V (for example).

Some people like the classics, and I hold no grudge against them, because it's all the more BM 943-1's in S90V for me(also an oldie but goldie).

And realistically speaking, nobody is going to die because their knife couldn't cut it. Or at least, I have yet to hear stories about male corpses found on a mountain with a blunt knife clutched in his hand, dead because he couldn't chop himself some firewood. I think most of us are careful enough to have a second knife with us.

 

[Twistedpair]

CRAZY NUTZ FOR THE $, Boker Plus Dozier:

 

[RedLynx]

CRAZY NUTZ FOR THE $, Boker Plus Dozier:

You shoulda at least undressed that for us man.

 

[Thomas Linton]

A $3 folder from your local 7/11 will get a "Rabid Dog" off of ya!
Better than nothing...................:thumbup:

The $10.00 S&W lockback I bought at the hardware to cut carpet closed on my hand. The liner lock went all the way across the back of the blade and into a crack when the whole frame flexed.

Least time for me.

You will do as you chose, but I think it's just nuts to buy a "cheap" folder.

 

[RedLynx]

And realistically speaking, nobody is going to die because their knife couldn't cut it. Or at least, I have yet to hear stories about male corpses found on a mountain with a blunt knife clutched in his hand, dead because he couldn't chop himself some firewood. I think most of us are careful enough to have a second knife with us.

*puts head down as he realizes he's a one-a-day EDC kind of guy*

Side note, you mention above that your m390 knife blunts and chips when doing hard gardening work.... I don't usually chip my knives, but most m390 knives I have seen are not too cheap (for my price range anyway), do you not get annoyed that it chips and you have to grind that out, I assume? I;m just curious. I wouldn't care if a cheap beater chips, and while I buy only knives I will use, and to a degree believe in the philosophy of treating my tools with "a certain familiar contempt) I know I probably wouldn't like chipping a blade like that. Wondered how you felt about it.

 

[RedLynx]

The $10.00 S&W lockback I bought at the hardware to cut carpet closed on my hand. The liner lock went all the way across the back of the blade and into a crack when the whole frame flexed.

Least time for me.

You will do as you chose, but I think it's just nuts to buy a "cheap" folder.

Hope you weren't injured. I remember the days when I used to buy an S&W here and there. Ah, lost youth. (I guess technically I'm still in the youth stage, but, y'know).

 

[Noctis3880]

Side note, you mention above that your m390 knife blunts and chips when doing hard gardening work.... I don't usually chip my knives, but most m390 knives I have seen are not too cheap (for my price range anyway), do you not get annoyed that it chips and you have to grind that out, I assume? I;m just curious. I wouldn't care if a cheap beater chips, and while I buy only knives I will use, and to a degree believe in the philosophy of treating my tools with "a certain familiar contempt) I know I probably wouldn't like chipping a blade like that. Wondered how you felt about it.

Well no, I'm not annoyed. Because I realized the reason it chipped was because I was cutting dirt with it. Speaking of which, I was trimming/cleaning the onions before putting them on the shelves, not gardening. That was back in the days when I actually used my knives for work. Nowadays my folders don't see much use aside from cutting tape and popping plastic straps.

It wasn't a big chip either, just small micro-chipping that you could only feel if you drag your nail along the edge. Wasn't a big deal to sharpen them out. M390 is my top steel of choice for custom knives(Phil Wilson Southfork, Andrew Demko AD-10, Brian Tighe Nirk Tighe). It mostly behaves like stainless CPM-M4. Back in the days when I had to cut down 250+ cornstalks/day, it was the only one that just kept going while holding that razor sharp edge the longest. The S90V class steels could also hold an edge, but it required a slicing motion that needed more than a 4" blade to slice through in one clean cut. M390 was absolutely perfect for extended push-cutting through very thick and abrasive medium. Never saw a speck of rust either:thumbup:.