Junk Steel

I thought I would post this in a separate post to get the points across...

Some people like to use examples of commercial workers use X steels for Y jobs...

Examples would be meat cutters, commercial fishermen, meat packing plant workers (Slaughterhouse)......

Yeah they do...... But lets put some reality into this thread......... ;)

But what they fail to point out is the knives are supplied by the employers........

So in the end the people really don't have a choice what they are using and or they just use what is given to them to use and turn them in at the end of the day....

Most of the knives are commercial grade blades designed for the specific use they are being used for and they buy them in bulk at a discounted rate.

Do the knives get the jobs done.... Yep.....

Are there better knives available? ...... Yep.....


It all comes down to cost, the bottom line as the companies have to account for every penny on those P&L statements.....

So they supply the workers with the tools that will get the job done at the lowest cost possible......
 
^Good points, Jim. The only caveat I can think of is professional chefs, who often purchase their own personal knife-rolls.

-Brett
 
timberweasel said:
^Good points, Jim. The only caveat I can think of are professional chefs, who often purchase their own personal knife-rolls.

-Brett
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Yeah, that's why I didn't include them, because they usually buy their own knives. :)
 
John_0917 said:
Who attacks S30V??
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I do. All the time, but after a few years, I try not to rain on people's parade, plus it gets tiring to repeat myself over and over, so most times, I just let it go.

When S30V first came out, I jumped on it, and had terrible luck with it. I never had micro-chipping, but ALL of my S30V knives (from multiple manufacturers) would lose their edges very quickly and be very hard to sharpen. Most were too soft and too thick behind the edge also. So I got rid of most of them in disgust. While I was trying to look into them, much better steels have come out into wide usage, such as S90V, CPM M4, CPM 3V, and even CPM 10V in customs. I have NO trouble sharpening these and getting fantastic results from them, so for me, why go back and try S30V again?

If you guys like it and get good results, that's great. I still consider it junk and won't buy a knife with it, especially since it's been bypassed by so many better steels (in edge retention). I used to love D2 and use it as my gold standard for comparing edge retention, but it's been surpassed also. It's still just as good as it ever was, but there are many more to choose from these days.

That's a good thing, IMO. I like choice. I still use D2, O1, 1095, as well as the super steels. I love them all. Except for S30V. :D

Pete1977 said:
I prefer a lower end, easier to use steel that may not hold its edge longer but is easier to resharpen in the field without fancy sharpening equipment and will deform rather than chip when stressed. When the performance of S30V and 1095 is so close for what I do with a knife it doesn't outweigh the cost of a super steel vs. a tried and true knife steel like something "lower end."
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You make a couple of good points. Certainly cost v.s. value is a factor. If a particular steel doesn't bring enough value to you then certainly don't buy it, that's a given.

The point I keep seeing everyone making is sharpening. I use DMT diafolds when not at home. I don't find the steel type to influence how long it takes me to sharpen. I find the thickness of the edge to be the primary factor in sharpening time. I see no difference between high and low allow steels. Once in a while, I also find hardness to be a factor, because for me, softer steels tend to burr heavily, which makes them a pain for me to sharpen. I also use too much pressure, which I'm working on improving.

Now maybe a diafold is specialized, but I'll bet very few people actually pick up a rock and use it. Most of us will use some sort of stone. My point is that if it's a diamond stone, it chews through any steel, regardless of alloy content, fast. I can't tell any difference.
 
I don't like most production D2 and usually try to avoid it. I have no complaints on edge retention, but prefer a steel that tends to have better corrosion resistance and steels that meet that criteria exist with equal or superior edge retention/wear resistance to D2, some of which are notably tougher.

I also tend to avoid most of the overly exotic steels for usage when those steels have one area of performance that is completely ridiculously good but lack in other areas.

While I like 154CM, I tend to be a little critical of makers using it on more expensive knives because I find CPM-154 to be superior in every sense and a higher price justifying the better steel.

I love 440C, VG-10, ATS-34, BG-42, and most of the usual carbon suspects like 1095, especially when you get a good knife in good 440, VG-10, or 1095 that keeps the price affordable and the performance very good relative to the price.
 
Pete1977 said:
You promise that k390 will far outperform 1095, which I don't deny that it will, but for my use, how much more performance will I get out of it, will I be able to sharpen it up in a few seconds on the spot and get back to work? What gives you the experience to make these promises? Watching a backyard "steel test" on youtube? Or actually using a knife, in real life, every day?
It's hard to take you seriously when you refer to 1095 as a "crap" steel and say it doesn't have a place in modern knife useage, yet it has been around for about a century longer than 3v and is still being used. Go figure. LOL
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How much is precisely the point there. Much like buying RAM for a computer, 64GB of RAM might be twice as much as 32GB, but sometimes(depending on the number of slots), you'll pay more than twice as much for it.

Maybe in extreme setups, you'll get twice(maybe three times?) as much rope cut with K390 than 1095, but you'll sure as hell pay more than twice as much for it. That would be due to higher costs of the steel itself, the higher costs of grinding/machining, higher temperatures for HT and tempering, and higher costs of finishing.

That old law of diminishing returns.

My $1,300 Cannondale bike does not ride 13 times faster or smoother than a $100 mountain bike, but I was happy paying for whatever performance differences I got.

Worth it for some people, not worth it for others. I don't see much of a problem so long as people don't start calling Pakistani steel "good":barf:.
 
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Noctis3880 said:
How much is precisely the point there. Much like buying RAM for a computer, 64GB of RAM might be twice as much as 32GB, but sometimes(depending on the number of slots), you'll pay more than twice as much for it.

Maybe in extreme setups, you'll get twice(maybe three times?) as much rope cut with K390 than 1095, but you'll sure as hell pay for than twice as much for it. That would be due to higher costs of the steel itself, the higher costs of grinding/machining, higher temperatures for HT and tempering, and higher costs of finishing.

That old law of diminishing returns.

My $1,300 Cannondale bike does not ride 13 times faster or smoother than a $100 mountain bike, but I was happy paying for whatever performance differences I got.

Worth it for some people, not worth it for others. I don't see much of a problem so long as people don't start calling Pakistani steel "good":barf:.
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Well computers.....

One really has to do a lot and PAY a lot to really see noticeable differences....

Now yeah go back 20 years ago and start comparing a 486 to today's computers and it's really insane....

And they cost a lot more back then too.....

But that's not really the same......

As far as the cost/performance percentage goes with knives it's hard to really factor everything in and it's really a poor way to try and justify anything that way. A lot of the added cost goes towards materials, quality and F&F and not directly towards performance.

It works well in other fields, not so much in knives most of the time.

Same goes for cars and watches.....

Start doing the cost/performance percentage on them and really taking it seriously nobody would ever buy a new car for more than $10K, or a watch for more than $20....
 
I found blade geometry to play a bigger role in my use than the steel does. All the steel has to do is be "good enough" and well that is usually a pretty low standard for me as I typically know in advance when I be doing some very heavy duty cutting so I can plan accordingly.

Between my carbon steel Opinel #6 or Mule Team 18 S110V I take my Opinel 99.9% of the time even if I have to cut up a few large recyling bins of cardboard. That carbon steel in the Opinel can be quickly stropped on the cardboard between boxes to help it keep going and sharpening it when I feel the need to will take me all of 30seconds to touch it up on a stone.

I know this as I have done this before when I have cut up a very large recycling bin's worth of cardboard using nothing but that Opinel some cardboard to strop on and a sharpening steel to touch it up the factory edge as I didn't have any stones at the time. Quite a bit of that cardboard was shredded into small strands so you couldn't tell what the box was to so no one knew we bought some tools as people used to always go through our trash and recycling. Most of the cardboard was thick currogated cardboard and some of it was glued together and almost as thick as the blade was in length and sturdy enough to support my weight without giving in (200+ pounds) an I've cut through that for fun instead of breaking it down after a quick strop on that very same piece of cardboard. This was all done in the course of a day.

Than I've tried to put the S110V Mule Team through it's paces and probably cut up 1/4-1/2 that amount of cardboard over the course of several days with it in attempts to dull it and I will admit it took a very long time to dull it to what I would consider a working edge as it could still slice printer paper. But by than it just felt like I was using a sharpened pry bar on the thicker pieces of geometry where as the Opinel would still be cutting through the very same pieces of cardboard with reckless disregard at the same level of sharpness. I probably would have had to strop the Opinel several times on cardboard which take all of 5sec to do and maybe 1 quick touch up to keep up with the S110V from what I recall I did that one day with the Opinel but even when sharp the S110V was more of a pain to use and required more force to cut.

My point is that I think a lot of us are over thinking some of this and trying to force our views onto others. Once you hit a point where you have a decent steel with good heat treat it's more about trading different attributes in steels and what you want in it but the blade geometry has a bigger factor in how it cuts when your cutting. The carbon steel Opinel was significantly easier to sharpen with inadequate equipment which allowed me to keep using it longer by quickly stropping on the very same cardboard I was cutting. The S110V in the Mule Team held it's edge significantly longer but was a lot harder to use due to the blade geometry and requires proper equipment to maintain the edge.

If I had the choice between an Opinel with the carbon steel or the S110V I would have taken the S110V for that job. Quite simply it would have worked better for the task at hand. But quite frankly I don't see anyone putting out an Opinel like knife with any high end steels for a cheap price. And there are some times I want an easier to sharpen steel so I would take the carbon on other jobs. Everything has it's pros and cons, it's best to determine what you want and try to find what will work best for you for the job at hand.

I will own up I am not expert on metallurgy, blade geometry, etc and I am still learning but this is what I have found the good old fashion way of using my knives. It was a bit of a wake up call and dispelled the whole super steels are awesome aura had for me when it finally clicked for me when the knife was more than just the steel it was made out of or how sharp the edge was when it came to performance when cutting.
 
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Why is it that when some people find something that's good enough for them, they think that it should be good enough for everybody else?
 
singularity35 said:
Why is it that when some people find something that's good enough for them, they think that it should be good enough for everybody else?
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Good question. Tis one that applies to both groups I think, those that have found older steels they like and those that insist we should all be using the supersteels.
 
RedLynx said:
Good question. Tis one that applies to both groups I think, those that have found older steels they like and those that insist we should all be using the supersteels.
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Hhhhhmm, I don't think that's the case. Notice that steel heads usually say "needs and wants"? Steel heads like steels, they have their preferences but most serious steel head users I've found have their choices in low alloy steels(52100 for me, and I've managed with 5160 in my pre-BF life), and the HCV steels as well.
 
singularity35 said:
Why is it that when some people find something that's good enough for them, they think that it should be good enough for everybody else?
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Indeed. I was more than satisfied with S125V, but some want more up to say, CPM Rex 121:D. Some might go for something even more exotic and expensive.

Some might not be satisfied with a lightsaber. Some might want an Æsahættr(see "His Dark Materials:The Subtle Knife"):D.
 
Ankerson said:
I thought I would post this in a separate post to get the points across...

Some people like to use examples of commercial workers use X steels for Y jobs...

Examples would be meat cutters, commercial fishermen, meat packing plant workers (Slaughterhouse)......

Yeah they do...... But lets put some reality into this thread......... ;)

But what they fail to point out is the knives are supplied by the employers........

So in the end the people really don't have a choice what they are using and or they just use what is given to them to use and turn them in at the end of the day....

Most of the knives are commercial grade blades designed for the specific use they are being used for and they buy them in bulk at a discounted rate.

Do the knives get the jobs done.... Yep.....

Are there better knives available? ...... Yep.....


It all comes down to cost, the bottom line as the companies have to account for every penny on those P&L statements.....

So they supply the workers with the tools that will get the job done at the lowest cost possible......
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This last bit is true. It will get the job done at the lowest cost. And that must mean that if the super steel options would likely save time or work because of their superiority, the add productivity is not great enough to justify the higher cost. If they really worked that much better, then I would think their cost would be off-set by increased productivity. Man-hours are expensive. If you can keep your employee working productively rather than fiddling with his tools, you would do it. it would help your bottom line. I do not know first hand what packing houses issue to their employees, but I would think that they do think about how to keep the meat-cutters cutting, not sharpening, for the least money.
 
singularity35 said:
Why is it that when some people find something that's good enough for them, they think that it should be good enough for everybody else?
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Human nature to recommend what they like. Ask a guy who loves his Mustang and think's it's the best thing known to man and he probably try to convince you to buy one. Put in a guy who loves the way his Miata handles and he try to convince you of the same. Same deal with the guy who swears by his Prius. Put them all in a room and an argument is bound to break out on what's the best if you asked them all at once on what car to buy. They will all get you from point A to B but they each have their own distinct characteristics and none of them are the "best".

Once you find a steel that is "good enough" by whatever your definition is there are far more important things to worry about in my opinion like how the blade will actually perform when your using it. I already stated what my personal opinion on this was and how I have a pretty low standard for "good enough" for steel choices but prefer performance in cutting. I highly doubt everyone will agree with my views but I shall agree to disagree with those people as there is no right answer, it's all personal preference.
 
W.M.B. said:
This last bit is true. It will get the job done at the lowest cost. And that must mean that if the super steel options would likely save time or work because of their superiority, the add productivity is not great enough to justify the higher cost. If they really worked that much better, then I would think their cost would be off-set by increased productivity. Man-hours are expensive. If you can keep your employee working productively rather than fiddling with his tools, you would do it. it would help your bottom line. I do not know first hand what packing houses issue to their employees, but I would think that they do think about how to keep the meat-cutters cutting, not sharpening, for the least money.
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Yeah it's called management..... ;)
 
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