You forgot "E" all the above, it depends on the situation.
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Junk Steel
- Thread starter bld522
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You forgot "E" all the above, it depends on the situation.
I guess I'm not too sure which category of users you're referring to then. But, it's of no real consequence. I think a lot of us here have gotten used to what we like or gotten used to liking the next big thing.
I think a lot of good give and take, back and forth goes on here. In a much, much more civil manner than most other forums I frequent.
But I'm probably not going to try to convince anyone else here to try my choices of knives or steels unless I know they already like similar.
We give and take a lot here, but unless we're going to pick up a certain knife and really try it, one thing I don't think we can sway anyone here on, is in trying to use a knife or steel we think is better, for whatever reason. But that's just me.
Ankerson
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I doubt you really learned anything.....
Likely 98% of the meat we all eat is processed with commercial grade knives before the customers ever see it....
Yes, that also includes what we all eat in restaurants... As the restaurants are customers too....
That's chicken, fish, pork, beef and lamb...
That's not being cheap, it's what they all use as it's the industry standard..... And they get bulk discounts.....
Most employers aren't going to put $100+ knives in peoples hands for various reasons....... None of them have to do with performance.....
At what the commercial grade knives cost they are basically disposable, and not expensive to replace and they meet all of the heath code standards.
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I have given the question of 'junk steel' a lot of thought and I have come to the conclusion that there is no junk steel, only crappy heat treatments and bad applications. The two steels in particular that led me to such a conclusion are Krupp 4116 and AUS-4, both of which many consider to be junk steel. The Kershaw Blackout that I have is AUS-4 and performs just fine, as does the Cold Steel Pocket Bushman in Krupp 4116. I doubt that many would argue that Kershaw and Cold Steel know a thing or two about heat treatments, or making knives for that matter. The treatments and applications of these two steels have come together to form two very serviceable knives and that is all I ask of any steel.
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No offense fellas, but to the "I'd rather have a easy to sharpen steel" crowd, I don't think that is a valid justification anymore. Sharpening equipment has been way ahead of knife steel all along, even with today's super steels. I'm not talking about belt sanders, I'm talking about pocket stones that you can carry with you at work. I personally use Spyderco ceramic stones and if I have a minute, I can get any knife shaving sharp again from AUS8 to M4. I haven't had to sharpen my S110V yet, but I'm not fearing it in the least bit. In fact, I'm looking forward to it.
So really, use what you like. It's fantastic that we have so many choices today with so many numbers and letters that make us sound so cool to our friends, and my personal goal is to try them all so as to form my own opinion on which ones I like better. So to each his own, unless his own is from China....:barf:
So really, use what you like. It's fantastic that we have so many choices today with so many numbers and letters that make us sound so cool to our friends, and my personal goal is to try them all so as to form my own opinion on which ones I like better. So to each his own, unless his own is from China....:barf:
I do not know what the standard packing house uses. My neighbor is a meat cutter at a local chain grocery store. He has been using the same knife for a year or so. Victorinox for that matter. Not disposable. Yes he re-sharpens it. They had some other ancient knives in the department when he took the job, and let him order what he wanted to use, if I understand correctly. Now, I doubt they would have approved something costing hundreds more, but they let him pick what he wanted, he wanted the victorinox, and has been using it for the last year or so, I think.I doubt you really learned anything.....
Likely 98% of the meat we all eat is processed with commercial grade knives before the customers ever see it....
Yes, that also includes what we all eat in restaurants... As the restaurants are customers too....
That's chicken, fish, pork, beef and lamb...
That's not being cheap, it's what they all use as it's the industry standard..... And they get bulk discounts.....
Most employers aren't going to put $100+ knives in peoples hands for various reasons....... None of them have to do with performance.....
At what the commercial grade knives cost they are basically disposable, and not expensive to replace and they meet all of the heath code standards.
Your point about health codes is interesting, to. I believe a steel (as in touch up on the steel) is more sanitary than a stone, to use during the work day in food prep. You don't need to stop to wash it, and don't get the "swerf" (i think that's what its called) so that might also explain some preference for a softer knife steel
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If that S110V is properly hardened to the Rc 63+ range, then you damned well should be afraid. There have been reports of ZDP-189 micro-chipping on the ceramic stones, which I suspect has something to do with the high hardness and brittle nature of ZDP. In that respect, I doubt S110V would fare much better. You might want to have a diamond stone nearby just in case
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If that S110V is properly hardened to the Rc 63+ range, then you damned well should be afraid. There have been reports of ZDP-189 micro-chipping on the ceramic stones, which I suspect has something to do with the high hardness and brittle nature of ZDP. In that respect, I doubt S110V would fare much better. You might want to have a diamond stone nearby just in case
Well they are a little different in composition, but I haven't had any trouble with my ZDP blade. I still ain't scared!
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Truly, my first produce knife was a rectangular shaped blade with a green handle. It was workable, but would dull fast(faster than my Mora), and one day snapped in two at the handle. Damned lucky the blade didn't drop on my foot, tip or no.I doubt you really learned anything.....
Likely 98% of the meat we all eat is processed with commercial grade knives before the customers ever see it....
Yes, that also includes what we all eat in restaurants... As the restaurants are customers too....
That's chicken, fish, pork, beef and lamb...
That's not being cheap, it's what they all use as it's the industry standard..... And they get bulk discounts.....
Most employers aren't going to put $100+ knives in peoples hands for various reasons....... None of them have to do with performance.....
At what the commercial grade knives cost they are basically disposable, and not expensive to replace and they meet all of the heath code standards.
I suppose it's admirable that I still see a couple of coworkers using the damned thing every now and again. But the smart ones bought their own knives to use. Nothing impressive, but it's apparent that the Costco Made in China knife(part of a set) performs better than the crap we get for free. Only thing that comes close to being that bad is the "ice hardened" crap I bought off the shelves of the store I worked in. Stupid easy to blunt, and huge chips formed at the edge when I sharpened it down to 12 degrees per side, which actually isn't too bad for a paring knife.
I guess all China crap aren't equal
.While I'm not crazy about standard issue crap, I'm perfectly fine with it so long as my boss doesn't make me use that PoS:thumbup:.
I also suspect "health code standards" don't cover potential injuries caused by the stupid weak blade breaking off and cutting your foot:barf:.
Ankerson
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Yeah that's pretty much standard, I am in management in the Grocery Business so i have ordered the knives for the meat cutters more than a few times.
Honestly, I personally think the harder user is more likely to use a steel that is anything but classified as a "super steel". In many cases, the usage is with a carbon steel that is not one of the techno super duper monster tactical operator machines that defies all scientific law!
Look at most of the hard-use fixed blades that get used in a fashion that puts exceptional strain on the blade, requires frequent sharpening, and often causes significant edge damage. While there are many fine fixed blades in exotic steels, there are a ton of them in "standard" steels such as 1095c or 52100. And fact of the matter is that many of the knives made in that "standard" steel gives overall performance which is not only a far better value, but in some cases not really improved upon by newer "state-of-the-art" steels. Beyond that, reviving a good 1095c blade from abusive usage is a lot less stressful than many other steels!!!
Even on the newer steels that are gaining popularity for hard-use fixed blades, such as Infi or 3V, the performance characteristics are still mirroring many of the older carbon steels with emphasis beyond that of extreme edge retention, which is very different from what many of the more common super steels are envisioned as?
Look at most of the hard-use fixed blades that get used in a fashion that puts exceptional strain on the blade, requires frequent sharpening, and often causes significant edge damage. While there are many fine fixed blades in exotic steels, there are a ton of them in "standard" steels such as 1095c or 52100. And fact of the matter is that many of the knives made in that "standard" steel gives overall performance which is not only a far better value, but in some cases not really improved upon by newer "state-of-the-art" steels. Beyond that, reviving a good 1095c blade from abusive usage is a lot less stressful than many other steels!!!
Even on the newer steels that are gaining popularity for hard-use fixed blades, such as Infi or 3V, the performance characteristics are still mirroring many of the older carbon steels with emphasis beyond that of extreme edge retention, which is very different from what many of the more common super steels are envisioned as?
Ankerson
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I believe the OP was talking about FOLDERS.....
Fixed blades are a different discussion....
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You are correct, Jim. Although I own and love fixed blades, I live and work in an environment that all but prohibits their use. So my bias is towards folders and the alloys used in their manufacture . . . well, until Busse releases their INFI folder, that is.
Ankerson
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You are correct, Jim. Although I own and love fixed blades, I live and work in an environment that all but prohibits their use. So my bias is towards folders and the alloys used in their manufacture . . . well, until Busse releases their INFI folder, that is.
That's what I figured.
Valid points, although it's worth noting there is absolutely nothing wrong with knives from China. They aren't inherently bad because they come from there. Many reputable U.S. manufacturers have entire lines that are produced there, with high standards... so I'll assume you meant the knives that are produced there at substandard levels in substandard conditions.
I meant in general but the same idea still applies to folders. Many of these newer steels are neat, but they are more expensive, they are often harder to upkeep, and they sometimes lack in one area that could result in the steel not being well-matched to usage. I think in many cases the old Opinel Carbones are still great knives in their own respect for certain types of harder usage in which ease of edge revival is a major plus, or if someone does not necessarily have the equipment or want to spend the time working on a steel with hella crazy performance.
Ankerson
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What is one going to be doing with a 3" to 4" FOLDER that they would need the same type of steel that would be used in a 10" Chopper...?
People aren't going to be chopping down 10" thick trees with their 3" to 4" folders.....
That aside I don't see the difference in maintenance other than the higher alloy steels need to be sharpened or touched up less....
As far as time goes goes for the said touch ups etc is basically the same.... Usually under a minute....
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Not really.
That would apply to old and new steels alike.
Common myth. Given proper sharpening skills and equipment(very cheap equipment at that), I bet you'd spend more time on upkeep of those older/simpler steels than I would with some of the supersteels given equal use amount and patterns. On top of that, if the use is intensive enough, the blade will be gone on "easy to sharpen" older knife, while new one will still have quite a bit.
Given same amount of material cut supersteel category needs less time to review the edge, simply because less wear and tear occurs.
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Hah yeah I understand Chinese knives and steels can be great value and solidly constructed, as shown by quite a few forum favorites. It just comes back to personal choice. I prefer to stay away from China for whatever reason, valid or not. With soooo many knives and steels available to us nuts, it's pretty easy to satisfy my knifely desires while maintaining my sinophobia (thanks google). It's just as easy to build an impressive collection of plain carbon steels, premium (at the time) super steels, pink handles, 2.75" blades, or whatever a person is into. Different knives for different lives.