just received poor example of custom 110

Pinnah, what do you want to say with your answer? What I want to get to know is: Why is the quality of the two knives I got from the Buck custom shop worse than the quality of the factory knives I can buy at Sears, Cabelas or anywhere else?

Haebbie

Haebbie, short version is that American labor is in a weaker position than in Europe and one of things this leads to is that it becomes harder for US manufacturing companies to consistently produce high quality products unless they more fully automate (which is also hard on labor).

With respect to Cabelas and Sears... Large retailers have more buying power and can demand different QA levels in bulk. As an example... When Patagonia was still using classic Polartec 300 (which they sold under the tradename Synchilla), they had a very high QA standard from the fleece they would accept from Malden Mills (the factory near me that produced it). LL Bean had a much lower QA standard which allowed them to sell at a much lower price point. I used to buy fleece directly from the Malden Mills factory store and you could see significant variation in the quality of the fleece and one of the workers explained how the QA process was tied to contracts from large buyers.

I would expect the Cabela's Bucks to have more consistent QA (huge order size hence huge buying power) than Buck's custom shop (small order size and less buying power).
 
I would expect the Cabela's Bucks to have more consistent QA (huge order size hence huge buying power) than Buck's custom shop (small order size and less buying power).

That's not my experience. Cabela's Alaskan Guide knives are hit-or-miss on the quality!
 
Idk, all of these look pretty good to me. All guide series knives.:thumbup:
I have one more not in pic.
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Haebbie, short version is that American labor is in a weaker position than in Europe and one of things this leads to is that it becomes harder for US manufacturing companies to consistently produce high quality products unless they more fully automate (which is also hard on labor).

Pinnah, I think there's no relation between the harder position of the German labor and the bad qualitty the knife had I got from the Buck custom shop. The production knives are a lot better than this custom shop 501. Or do you think I am too picky? Have a look at my pictures. Would you accept a knife with these lacks?

Haebbie
 
Hello Haebbie,
In the U.S. companies are banding together and integrating for years now a way to conform manufacturing by a standard called ISO 9001 which the company has to operate in cojunction with the ISO standard. They must qualify to be part of this practice which involves inspectors coming to the company and see if the company conforms to the standards set by the group which is getting bigger. So if your company is not certified ISO 9001 you are going to loose business to the company that is certified ISO 9001. It is a way to make better products under strict guidelines set by outside inspectors. Most companies that receive materials on a continuous basis want it JUST IN TIME. So they do not have to keep reordering and to keep product not taking up space on their premises but on the premises of the supplier. This is worked into the worker who eventually will have to be compliant to the process of the ISO 9001 and Qualify for a new job with training sessions and given certs.
 
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Haebbie, short version is that American labor is in a weaker position than in Europe and one of things this leads to is that it becomes harder for US manufacturing companies to consistently produce high quality products unless they more fully automate (which is also hard on labor).

With respect to Cabelas and Sears... Large retailers have more buying power and can demand different QA levels in bulk. As an example... When Patagonia was still using classic Polartec 300 (which they sold under the tradename Synchilla), they had a very high QA standard from the fleece they would accept from Malden Mills (the factory near me that produced it). LL Bean had a much lower QA standard which allowed them to sell at a much lower price point. I used to buy fleece directly from the Malden Mills factory store and you could see significant variation in the quality of the fleece and one of the workers explained how the QA process was tied to contracts from large buyers.

I would expect the Cabela's Bucks to have more consistent QA (huge order size hence huge buying power) than Buck's custom shop (small order size and less buying power).

disagree completely. european labor is in no better shape at all. as a collector of german soligen made bokers, italian made switchblades, and various other blades made in europe....the quality is not there and hasnt been for decades. im a fan of many brands not just buck and ill put bucks quality and consistency over many european made brands in the same or close price points many times. having said that its fit and finish issues with european brands not function and i still collect them as i like many different blades from all over.
 
It is more about pride of workmanship and whether companies are pushing their employees to force out product without allowing them the time to properly finish and inspect products, in my opinion. It is not that the worker has less pride today than before, but they believe that most companies don't give a crap about them, so why should they care.

In general, people want products for the cheapest price possible, so steps are taken to deliver the goods and quality ends up suffering. I don't believe that there is any difference in the working people.
 
Pinnah, I think there's no relation between the harder position of the German labor and the bad qualitty the knife had I got from the Buck custom shop. The production knives are a lot better than this custom shop 501. Or do you think I am too picky? Have a look at my pictures. Would you accept a knife with these lacks?

Haebbie

Haebbie, I don't think you're being too picky at all. I would actually expect the production knives to be better quality (given the same materials). IME, there are 2 ways to get a consistently good quality product in the US. The first is to have highly controlled, highly standardized production line process. This reduces the chance for human error and if the process is controlled or automated, the product can be consistently good (provided good design and materials). That's why a production Buck 110 can be so good for so little. Ditto SAKs and Moras. The downside for the worker is this approach doesn't demand professional tradesman level skill from the worker, which means that there's downward pressure on wages, which means the jobs are ripe for oursourcing to locations with cheaper, equally low skilled labor.

The other approach is to have super high skilled artisans. True custom or near custom work. But, this jacks up the price way high but doesn't scale in terms of volume.

The third approach of using semi-regular processes with more human labor is, IMO, much harder to sustain in the US. This can happen when tooling is old or not up to date and needing more skilled human labor to fill in the gaps. The problem is that product prices need to stay low to compete with more automated high volume products. Manufacturer's don't pay high enough salaries that jobs can be long term, stable careers, so skills don't develop. This is what challenged and ultimately took down Schrade and Camillus. I think this is what keeps Bear and Sons and Utica quality so spotty. Case has issues along this line, as had Queen. GEC is making a good run using this model, so perhaps they're the exception. Better wage support for workers and universal healthcare make these sorts of jobs more sustainable for the worker, thus allowing the skills to grow.

IMO, the low to mid level knives from Buck are more like the first model. They have the process mostly down and they have have solid designs for some (110, 501) , but not all of their knives (Spitfire).

In the $100ish range out of the custom shop, I can appreciate the pressures Buck faces. If Buck is like other US manufacturers, low wage pressures and no national healthcare or family leave benefits, then it's hard to keep the skilled labor needed. I'm seeing something different than JBMonkey is seeing. In the $100+ range, Europe produces very nice knives from companies that have very long histories.
 
Haebbie, I don't think you're being too picky at all. I would actually expect the production knives to be better quality (given the same materials). IME, there are 2 ways to get a consistently good quality product in the US. The first is to have highly controlled, highly standardized production line process. This reduces the chance for human error and if the process is controlled or automated, the product can be consistently good (provided good design and materials). That's why a production Buck 110 can be so good for so little. Ditto SAKs and Moras. The downside for the worker is this approach doesn't demand professional tradesman level skill from the worker, which means that there's downward pressure on wages, which means the jobs are ripe for oursourcing to locations with cheaper, equally low skilled labor.

The other approach is to have super high skilled artisans. True custom or near custom work. But, this jacks up the price way high but doesn't scale in terms of volume.

The third approach of using semi-regular processes with more human labor is, IMO, much harder to sustain in the US. This can happen when tooling is old or not up to date and needing more skilled human labor to fill in the gaps. The problem is that product prices need to stay low to compete with more automated high volume products. Manufacturer's don't pay high enough salaries that jobs can be long term, stable careers, so skills don't develop. This is what challenged and ultimately took down Schrade and Camillus. I think this is what keeps Bear and Sons and Utica quality so spotty. Case has issues along this line, as had Queen. GEC is making a good run using this model, so perhaps they're the exception. Better wage support for workers and universal healthcare make these sorts of jobs more sustainable for the worker, thus allowing the skills to grow.

IMO, the low to mid level knives from Buck are more like the first model. They have the process mostly down and they have have solid designs for some (110, 501) , but not all of their knives (Spitfire).

In the $100ish range out of the custom shop, I can appreciate the pressures Buck faces. If Buck is like other US manufacturers, low wage pressures and no national healthcare or family leave benefits, then it's hard to keep the skilled labor needed. I'm seeing something different than JBMonkey is seeing. In the $100+ range, Europe produces very nice knives from companies that have very long histories.

I think this is an astute assessment of production in America. Americans are also used to relatively cheap products and, from my experience and generally speaking of course, many people would rather buy 10 disposable clocks over a period of time versus buying one expensive clock that will last a lifetime. There's a reason Wal-Mart and similar stores do phenomenal business.

If people really want to support domesticate manufacturing they have to be willing to open up their wallets and shift their thinking from quantity to quality. Buy one great kitchen knife and learn to maintain and sharpen it versus buying dozens and dozens of cheap and disposable knives in your lifetime. But the consumer mentality has grown stronger and stronger over the last few generations.
 
Five pages and I've seen the problem placed on lack of quality inspection, process certification, even a lack of socialism. The fact is in every instance someone at Buck didn't do their job and they knew it when they didn't do it.

The only things in manufacturing that count are, people, process and material. If your process is flawed your product will be flawed. If your material is flawed your product will be flawed. If your people are flawed your product will be flawed. If one leg of this triangle is flawed you have to fix it. You cannot inspect quality into the product. If the people, the process and the material are up to and touching then the quality will be there.

If you try and inspect quality into a product then you will get people building to an inspection standard and not the product standard. People make mistakes but but mostly is a flaw with one of the three things I mentioned that causes the failure.

If you want to inspect something inspect the material before purchase and on delivery. Review your processes and make sure they are accommodating your production needs, staffing, maintenance, etc. Train your people and except nothing but their best.
 
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Five pages and I've seen the problem placed on lack of quality inspection, process certification, even a lack of socialism.
I don't know why ISO 9001 or European manufacturing amount to socialism... I think good points were raised regarding current N. American manufacturing and consumerism standards. This isn't about "socialism vs. capitalism" rather a combination of the decline in the demand/supply of artisanal products and the more pragmatic reasons you mentioned, which are both related in many ways.
 
I don't know why ISO 9001 or European manufacturing amount to socialism... I think good points were raised regarding current N. American manufacturing and consumerism standards. This isn't about "socialism vs. capitalism" rather a combination of the decline in the demand/supply of artisanal products and the more pragmatic reasons you mentioned, which are both related in many ways.
I wasn't referring to ISO 9001 or European manufacturing as being socialist. There are 5 pages of posts. I just happened to post after after you did.
 
Can't believe this thread is approaching 100......it's taken on a life of it's own.
The OP hasn't been here since the 13th.
 
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I've been aware lately of an increasing tension or deterioration of comradery among the Buck forum members. For lack of a better term "Trolls" have stirred the pot and to me there seems to be more posturing of otherwise positive contributors.

In my opinion, there has always been a very positive attitude or carefull criticism from the brethren on nearly all the Buck forum posts. Lately not so much...
 
I've been aware lately of an increasing tension or deterioration of comradery among the Buck forum members. For lack of a better term "Trolls" have stirred the pot and to me there seems to be more posturing of otherwise positive contributors.

In my opinion, there has always been a very positive attitude or carefull criticism from the brethren on nearly all the Buck forum posts. Lately not so much...

I agree, and have been wondering what is the cause and what the solution/remedy might be. Preston
 
I think we are all passionate about Buck knives. With that comes strong emotions. All I know is if you have a problem you should be able to come here to discuss it, whether you own 1000 Buck knives or just one.
 
Idk, all of these look pretty good to me. All guide series knives.:thumbup:
I have one more not in pic.
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There,my eyes show the second and third. Ag 110 from the bottom of your group of ag 110 s to have badly ground blades,look up towards the spine you will see they are not ground tight compared to the nice grind lines on the rest.but what do you say " they all look great" no they don't.everyone has a different eye.
 
Five pages and I've seen the problem placed on lack of quality inspection, process certification, even a lack of socialism. The fact is in every instance someone at Buck didn't do their job and they knew it when they didn't do it.

The only things in manufacturing that count are, people, process and material. If your process is flawed your product will be flawed. If your material is flawed your product will be flawed. If your people are flawed your product will be flawed. If one leg of this triangle is flawed you have to fix it. You cannot inspect quality into the product. If the people, the process and the material are up to and touching then the quality will be there.

If you try and inspect quality into a product then you will get people building to an inspection standard and not the product standard. People make mistakes but but mostly is a flaw with one of the three things I mentioned that causes the failure.

If you want to inspect something inspect the material before purchase and on delivery. Review your processes and make sure they are accommodating your production needs, staffing, maintenance, etc. Train your people and except nothing but their best.

I cannot believe some of the things you have said. Do you read what you write before you post it. This part," The fact is in every instance someone at Buck didn't do their job AND they knew it when they didn't do it" is to say to that is impossible to read and comprehend that someone can make that statement. putting socialism in any form and using it in a knife forum is being totally ignorant of it's meaning. Picking this apart the next thing I cannot believe you said " If you try and inspect quality into a product " which is what quality control inspectors jobs are, " then you will get people to an inspection standard" yes that is correct and what a company pays inspectors to do is find parts that are out of spec. and the cause of out of tolerance parts. The product standard is to conform to a drawing or blueprint dimensionally. I think you just have not worked in an assembly or manufacturing capacity.
 
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I've been aware lately of an increasing tension or deterioration of comradery among the Buck forum members. For lack of a better term "Trolls" have stirred the pot and to me there seems to be more posturing of otherwise positive contributors.

In my opinion, there has always been a very positive attitude or carefull criticism from the brethren on nearly all the Buck forum posts. Lately not so much...

Yeah, we never did get any pictures of that knife or any proof that it even existed.
 
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