Just returned from elk hunt; are we over thinking this?

[marchone]

The best skinners I've ever seen used cheap carbon steel knives and sharpened them on anything they could find including rocks........ doesn’t mean I’m gonna

That was exactly my experience on a plains game hunt in Namibia. The Harare trackers had what looked like Victorinox knock-offs they sharpened on select field stones. Those guys knew what they were doing and I never unsheathed my knife. Mature kudu were skinned in a flash.

On the other hand, I once field-dressed a Rio Grande turkey with a SAK because that's what I had on me when the ranch hands were off looking for another hunter. I also had a Leatherman on me I used to cut a piece of wire fence to hang the bird in a tree.

But like anything else, you learn from your mistakes. I never leave home anymore to go anywhere without a good sharp folder and a SAK in my pockets.

 

[Quiet]

I have never hunted, and have never skinned an animal. Big meat eater here, sure, but I've just never had any interest in it.

On one hand, I can see how having high quality tools would make processing an animal easier. On the other, my more logical side, I definitely think it's a matter of preference and overkill. After all, people have been hunting and cleaning/skinning/quartering game for thousands of years longer than we've had what we as knife knuts consider "high quality tools". So, are they a "nice to have"? Sure are. But are they necessary? Well, I would say no, no they aren't. Both my father and grandfathers were hunters, and I've watched Dad process a ton of ducks, turkeys, and deer with nothing more than a Buck 110 or an old Pilot's Knife* he got while he was active duty. He sure didn't seem to have any issues doing so.



* I don't even know who made it, I actually have it at my house around here somewhere.

 

[jackknife]

For how much of human history was all that done with a sharp piece of rock?

I've carried knives in 440A, AUS-6, etc. I've taken my share of rabbits from field to table with 7Cr17Mov. I think we've all used old dull kitchen knives in worse steels at some point in our lives. Lots of things can be done with very little. Just because you can, should you?

Stuff like that tends to live near the base of the curve of diminishing return. Down there, you can take a sizeable step up for just a little extra. Steels like 14C28N can do a lot and do it fairly well without costing much. That's a good place to be. There have been times when I've noticed a friend using something like the examples in this thread and I've had the opportunity to give them a gift. There's nothing quite like knocking someone's socks off with a good piece of budget gear.

My whole attitude on knives changed when I was on a long cross country trip and stopped at Mesa Verde National park to camp, and look over the cliff dwellings. I was lucky to witness a demonstration by a park ranger on how effective the tools of the Indians were.

He had a chunk of obsidian, and he knocked off an index finger size flake of the stuff, and started to skin a haunch of a road killed antelope. That little flake of obsidian sliced right through hide and meat like a freshly sharpened steel knife. It cut right through cordage made from Yucca plant fibers like ti was cotton kite string.

A few years later my wife and I did an Eco tour of the rain forest in Costa Rica. Our son had been based in San Jose on business for his company and arranged our visit. We spent a number of days hiking on guided tours with our guides, who steered us to a new campsite every night. All the guides carried a small 10 to 12 inch bladed machete in a nice leather sheath, and in a pouch on the belt was a SAK and a Bic lighter. They used those small machetes for everything around camp, to include dinner making. On the last night in the jungle, they did a pig roast. Those machetes did a wonderful job of slicing and serving the beautifully roasted pork, both cutting and used as spatula's.

We knife nuts tend to be an arrogant bunch a bit full of ourselves.

 

[DocT]

I do not hunt anymore, sadly. When I used to hunt I never saw an expensive knife. One time I did see a Puma. The guy was dressing a deer and tossed his knife to stick it in the dirt so he could have his hands free (I do not remember why) and when he pulled it out it was missing a 1/4" of the tip, just like that.

Most guys had Bucks, Gerbers, Old Hickory butcher knives, and etc. No one had a $150 + knife. They did not want to take a chance on losing them in the woods, me either. In fact, I usually want something I can easily sharpen in the field.

 

[whp]

One of the more interesting threads we ve had in a while.

Sometimes we forget how little the difference is between an 80.00 knife and a 280.00 knife in terms of practical use.
While I appreciate a tight lockup and blade centering on a folder, I realize that neither affect the functionality of the knife.
Little defects in the fit and finish of one of my knives is ok, as long as I didn't pay so much as to make it unacceptable. And I don t pay that much for knives anymore.

 

[Smaug]

Yep, and it's not just for hunting. All I really need for my day-to-day is a good Swiss army knife, and for the odd times I need to clean a squirrel, I can't do much better than a Buck 102 "Woodsman".

I'm surprised at so many references to folders for hunting. Even for something as small as a squirrel, I don't like the extra work of either taking the care not to get stuff in the mechanics or cleaning out the mechanics. Why not a small fixed blade, purpose-built for hunting?

On a side note, what is involved in field dressing an elk? Seems like they're too big to drag out of the woods whole, and you mentioned using a saw on the pelvis. Are they quartered? Taken out on an ATV trailer?

 

[22-rimfire]

It's amazing what you can get by with, but that doesn't mean there isn't a superior tool.

I suspect that is almost always the case. I used to seek "superior", but I really don't any more just because the so called superior knives generally don't cut any better than a medium grade knife. I however would expect a hunting guide to have a fairly high quality knife (and a spare) since that is their business. They can write it off as a tool in their taxes. With business applications, I like to be a bit redundant with my tools. For example, I keep two drills and two recip saws inside my work van.

 

[goldie]

Its threads like this that make me want to sell my 2 Busses; i must be out of my mind to have 900.00 in the 2 of them.This thread shows how un necessary it is to have that kind of money in 2 fixed blades.But i still like them......

 

[jaseman]

I’m glad someone’s already mentioned ancient man and stone tools. We got by for millennia with pointed sticks and shaped stones. And early man probably skinned and dressed game just as quickly and efficiently as any modern guide.

I don’t hunt or fish, or dress game, but as purely a ‘tool’ I think most here really do overthink the knives they buy. We don’t need some $200+ super steel blade from the maker of the week to do the job, or even do it well. We just need a basic, sharp knife. Anything beyond that, really is just for our own desire, vanity, or both. They’re cool to have, but not needed.

Want a real, prime example? Walk into any high end restaurant and see what knives they’re using. They’re industrial grade, plastic handled, basic steel knives that are sharpened periodically on a grinder. Sure, the chef’s might have some nice knives in a tool roll somewhere, but 95% of the cutting is done with $23-35 tools.

edit to add:
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with buying what you want, in what steel you like, at whatever price you feel is worth it. If it brings you joy or satisfaction, that’s all that matters. But if you think you can’t get by without it, as a tool, then you are definitely overthinking it.

 

[22-rimfire]

Its threads like this that make me want to sell my 2 Busses; i must be out of my mind to have 900.00 in the 2 of them.This thread shows how un necessary it is to have that kind of money in 2 fixed blades.But i still like them......

I still like my large fixed blades, but I never use them. I used to want a 5.5"-6" blade for the woods, but now I lean toward a bit smaller knife since I mostly use the folder in the woods anyway. I would keep the Busse's just because I "like 'em". Nothing has really changed from Horace Kephart's days afield 100 years ago... two knives, a folder and a modest fixed blade.

 

[CarsonWayne]

We don't need anything more than this. And it'll never get lock stick!

 

[000Robert]

The knife is a tool.
To use a tool analogy, when I used to go and help friends work on cars, I'd take four or five different ratchets.
Now can a cheap hardware store ratchet to the same thing as my Snap On ratchets?
Yes, and I have used the very same cheap crap without complaint.
Given a choice, I'd take my Snap On any day but I think you tend to use what you got.
If a cheap POS knife is all you got, well...for some folks that's all they know and all they care to know.
Some folks can do with cheap hardware store crap and some folks like Snap On.

Snap On tools are my favorite also. I also liked Matco wrenches. I fell in love with Snap On tools when I was a auto mechanic in my younger days. They just feel so good in my hands. Now that I'm in the later stage of life it doesn't bother me to use cheaper tools since I don't use them as much. But if I were using them all day I would definitely use Snap On.
Less expensive knives can do most jobs. But everybody should have at least a couple of knives that can handle when TSHTF. Even a disabled guy like me has been able to acquire a couple of nice CPK's!

 

[Dav(id)03]

I was issued a Benchmade Auto Stryker in 07’ All I can say is if the Marine Corps spends money on something, it’s for a reason. And I can say for certain, Im happy I was not given a pointy rock at cif...although it wouldn’t have surprised me

 

[spoonrobot]

Want a real, prime example? Walk into any high end restaurant and see what knives they’re using. They’re industrial grade, plastic handled, basic steel knives that are sharpened periodically on a grinder. Sure, the chef’s might have some nice knives in a tool roll somewhere, but 95% of the cutting is done with $23-35 tools.

Not really. I've been around the block, the vast majority of high-end restaurants aren't using Dexter-Russell or comps for most tasks. Mid-range casual places? Sure. But anything about that and everyone from the fry cook to Head has a knife roll with Victorinox or better. Sharpening service is generally paper wheels or done in house by the 1-2 guys who have skill. If it's a competitive kitchen you better have a nice kit, be able to steel and sharpen well enough to small dice an over-ripe tomato without crushing the flesh or you're not going anywhere. I've been in the industry since 2004 and the most common knives I see are Shun models followed closely by the hundreds of different OEM Japanese knives. Now, meat-cutting/fish-processing, that's a different animal - those industries love the knives you described. However they also pay big money for sharpening as a service or a skill. A dull knife means lost time and product.

In both industries silicon carbide grinding wheel produced edges aren't going to be acceptable to anyone. The demand for sharpness is very high because much of what is being cut is soft and malleable and can easily be crushed and the "product" it's destined for lowered in value significantly. When I worked with Sodexo they had their knives ground (not sharpened) weekly and they produced some of the worst looking and worst tasting product - but their clients are often contract bound and the company is only concerned with lowest cost so it didn't matter. Even there, many of the employees brought their own knives and used pull through sharpeners as that was all they had the skill/inclination to learn about - but they worked better.

Regardless, I love knives, using them, and sharpening them. I also understand not everyone does but there's no reason for me to self-flagellate because our interests are different. Using a dirty, dull knife sucks and honestly it doesn't suck any less just because the user doesn't know or care.

 

[c7m2p3]

The answer is probably yes and no. Yes because of stories like all of the above. Heck, people have been dressing game with pieces of flint or rock chipped into a semi sharp tool for thousands of years before anyone even dreamed up the idea of using metal much less powder steel. So in that way, yes we do overthink knives as tools because there are many of use that scoff at the idea of using anything other than a Tri-Ad lock with S35VN to do something as punishing as dress a dear. Though as we all know, there are hunting guides out there dressing dozens of large game animals each year using nothing more than liner lock kershaw, gerber, or buck knives in some variation of 420HC, 8cr or the like.

The NO side of this worth mentioning as well though. Because like your guide who was happy to have you touch it up on your coffee cup, many people simply do not know how much easier the tasks that they have grown accustomed to doing would be with a quality blade that is reasonably sharp. I know there are plenty of people here that have sharpened blades for friends and family and have gotten rave responses on how easy it is now to cut vegetables or the like. So the vast majority of people who carry and use pocket knives are simply ignorant of what a quality knife feels like to use. Sure that guide was totally fine using his dinged up Kershaw but had you handed him a wicked sharp 20CV blade with contoured handles, I imagine his perception on what was in his pocket would change rather quick.

It is all about what you know and your frame of reference. Talk to someone in the 80s or 90s about finding directions and they probably thought they had it pretty good. Compare that to a GPS enabled smart phone in your pocket at all times and that kind of existences starts looking pretty arduous. Same thing here. That old kershaw is fine becase that is probably all he knows. Exposure to the 'good stuff' can start changing minds though.

 

[Smaug]

Thinking about this more, I think the guy who was breaking down the elk was probably unaware of the differences in blade steels. Before I got into knives, I didn't know either.

My brother buys these $15 Gerbers because he likes the assisted action and the way they look and feel. He was not aware of the differences in steel either. When I told him, he is not willing to spend the money on a knife with better steel, and he doesn't make money with his knife, so I don't necessarily blame him.

The hunting guides though... with a steel that holds an edge better, they will save time in re-sharpening and/or in the field with a better steel. It would be worth the cash outlay to them.

I think the OP also mentioned that the Kershaw was pretty worn down from use and re-sharpening. This is consistent with my experience skinning animals: the blade has to be SHARP for it to work well. Better to STAY sharp through a whole hunt than to be easier to re-sharpen later.

Here is where there is an opportunity for you to pay it forward, OP: Send them a knife with a better steel, ask them to use it and report back on it. Doesn't have to be super-spendy, but something better than a cheap Kershaw. See what they say. (and bump this thread to let us know!)

 

[Smaug]

That was exactly my experience on a plains game hunt in Namibia. The Harare trackers had what looked like Victorinox knock-offs they sharpened on select field stones. Those guys knew what they were doing and I never unsheathed my knife. Mature kudu were skinned in a flash.

Some folks in this thread have said: "It's more important to be able to sharpen it on whatever is available." I would say that's true only if it goes dull to begin with! Wouldn't it indeed be better to not need to re-sharpen in the field? (but to be prepared, just in case?)

Just think of how many more kudu could be cleaned between sharpenings with a Maxamet blade compared to some cheap 420 knock-off SAK...

 

[MarkN86]

Most of the time when I look at a non-enthusiast's knife I usually see tape and glue all over the blade, food or animal gunk in the pivot or left on the blade, an edge that's so dull a key would be a better cutting tool, and/or bent or broken tips. The whole thing is often mistreated at the most basic level. It does absolutely no good to have the best heat treated 20CV in the industry if it's about as sharp as a golf ball and you're going to use it as a prybar. Best if this type of user doesn't invest in a finer piece of hardware.

At the same time, it says a lot about a person if their cheap knife looks well used but is clean, properly lubricated, and SHARP. You definitely need a certain level of quality, there is really no excuse to carry those cheap, wobbly laceration hazards they sell at flea markets and gas stations when you can get an entry level budget knife for well under $20. The ability to sharpen and maintain a decent knife is better than spending a ton on a great knife and neglecting it.

When it comes to hunting, I generally favor something with a grippy handle, things get SLICK when they get bloody. I avoid ball bearing flippers for hunting, they draw corrosive gunk. I would choose a rubber type grip, rough micarta, grippy G10 like you find on the Cold Steel Recon 1 or the Ultimate Hunter, or the G10 or FRN Volcano texture you find on Spydercos. Washer based folders can be soaked in hot soapy water to get the gunk out without too much concern of corrosion. In addition there are quite a few old timers that use slipjoint hunting knives. Lots of deer have been taken apart without a lock.

In my opinion, a fixed blade is best for hunting. No need to clean out the pivot and lock after the fact, just carry a rag and wipe it down before you resheath and clean it well when you go in for the night. I normally use a discontinued Kershaw Bear Hunter II or a Mora Companion, both are cheap and have served me well for the past decade.

Money is the least important factor, IMO. So long as the edge will keep working long enough to get the job done, you can hang on to the thing during the process, and it doesn't fold or break in use it's fine. If you like a $300 CPK you should get and use one, it's part of the pride of ownership and it's a life experience. Just know that if all you have is a cheaper, decent quality knife you aren't really missing out as long as you maintain your gear.

 

[not2sharp]

IIRC there was a story many years back in one of the knife magazines; Ron Hood, or someone like him has taken a trip to South America. He had taken his latest wonder blade, which may have been a Busse, with the intent of testing it in the field. He had tried on several occasions to lend his knife to his guides to get their input; but, they kept returning the knife and laughing at him. Apparently, they couldn't figure out why someone would want to carry that thing, when all that was needed was a machete.

n2s

 

[CVamberbonehead]

Im not sure that were overthinking, I think that hunting guide is under thinking it. lol Theres no reason to use such a crappy knife if youre a guide. To each their own though.