Kershaw vs. Zero tolerance

[bodog]

^^I already said what categories I believe I fall into. I like certain things about ZT, enough to sometimes carry one. It's precisely because I earn a decent living that I can afford one. Most cops, firefighters, paramedics, and soldiers that actually need a knife cannot, I'm lucky. I hope you aren't dumping on those on the front lines because they can't afford a high priced knife.

 

[bodog]

^^^^^^Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. Maybe you should have chosen a career path that pays better.

Just doing this to make sure you don't try to cover up what you said. It's pretty jacked up.

 

[scamero]

Going along with the above post, and possibly getting off topic... At my PD there are two knife guys, myself and one other. I carry all kinds/brands pretty equally on duty. The other guy mostly carries various Kershaws. I'd say 75% of the other Officers carry knives (25% no knives at all). The ones that do carry, carry $5-$25 type Chinese gas station knives. My partner (Female) carries a Benchmade Barrage, but it takes her approx ten minutes to deploy it lol.

 

[Daddyo16]

I don't mean to stir the pot, but someone who shows up on an internet forum and starts throwing around the "Fanboy" label just because someone else happens to like a particular knife company's product isn't really here to be a part of the community.

I have ZT's and I have Kershaws. I like both. I think KAI turns out a quality product for a reasonable price. I also like Benchmade and Spyderco, as well as others.

Opinions are fine, but putting labels on others simply because they have different preferences is the mark of someone who isn't very articulate.

 

[rxavage]

Gerber makes knives for the military, they are issued and carried. I've owned several of them, my wife(e6) was even gifted a few along with "awards" and they were decent but couldn't hold a candle to any ZT I've seen. So that designed for stuff is bologna.

 

[PURPLEDC]

ZT is not KAI's answer to law enforcement and military. I know no one in the law enforcement or military world that would carry a 0454 because of the price and possibly of losing it or breaking it. For what it's worth, I was military and have been in law enforcement for the last 7+ years. I've seen only one other person besides myself carry a ZT, me an 0561 and him an 0801. But he also knew enough to have a couple of customs, too, so he was at least somewhat of a knifenut like myself.

ZT is KAI's answer to a niche market seeking a knife hyped as a military/law enforcement tool without being anywhere close to within range of what 99.9% of actual military or law enforcement would think about carrying on duty. It's done a great job of taking thick slabs of titanium and attaching a thick slab of steel that pivots, but it's done a terrible job of making that within reach of the people they claim they market to.

I've seen SOG, cold steel, benchmade, schrade, buck, protech, kershaw, and spyderco knives be carried quite a bit by fellow military and law enforcement officers. I've seen someone carrying Solingen made slip joints. I've seen guys carry Tops, Becker, Esee, and Grayman. I have not, however, seen anyone carry ZT except for myself and that the guy I spoke of earlier.

So, ZT is producing a specific product for a specific niche, but military and law enforcement officers very simply aren't it. Knife collectors? People with spare cash who wouldn't flip out if they lost or broke a high priced knife? People who like to think they need a knife designed "for military or law enforcement" without actually being in military or law enforcement? People who like to show off these said knives? Yes, yes, and yes.

If they were producing knives for military and law enforcement they would sell the knives at a price point within reach of the people who actually use and abuse knives on the front line or in the middle of a dark, rainy night breaking some baby out of a flaming vehicle.

In my experience, other companies produce better knives for that. There's nothing wrong with KAI making high quality, pretty knives for knife junkies. But there needs to be someone speaking facts about who they market to and why.

I personally fall into the "it wouldn't kill me to break or lose a good knife" and "I like to show off my knives" categories. It has nothing to do with me being a law enforcement officer or veteran. Simply put, it's not for military or law enforcement or a lot of those guys would be carrying the brand. Not saying that they don't fall into the hands of a person on the front lines with at least adequate results, just that they're not FOR those people doing those duties, per se, or more people doing those duties would have one.

Edit, I remember a guy that carried a 300 series, too, but he also had a spartan knife and a couple of other high end knives, he was also a guy who like to show off his knives.

Honestly I wouldnt even think twice about the marketing. The whole military/LEO thing was what I think ZT started as but it became something quite different. In the beginning ZT knives werent even intended for the general public. But they found their ways into the hands of people determined to get their hands on them and became quite popular. They had expensive models like the 301 but they also have some very decent lower cost offerings like the scavenger. Somewhere along the way they opened up to the dealers and allowed the general public to buy the knives and I think the original concept of what ZT knives was supposed to be evolved.

^^^^^^Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. Maybe you should have chosen a career path that pays better.

WOW. That was incredibly disrespectful.

 

[Inazone]

ZT is not KAI's answer to law enforcement and military. I know no one in the law enforcement or military world that would carry a 0454 because of the price and possibly of losing it or breaking it. For what it's worth, I was military and have been in law enforcement for the last 7+ years. I've seen only one other person besides myself carry a ZT, me an 0561 and him an 0801. But he also knew enough to have a couple of customs, too, so he was at least somewhat of a knifenut like myself.

Eh, the 0454 is a pretty extreme example in my opinion. Not that there aren't people who will use and abuse one, but the very nature in which that model was made available speaks volumes about the collector market. If anything, I think that most consumers (including LE and military) aren't familiar with the ZT brand, even if they have known about Kershaw for years. I first found out about Kershaw from a Navy vet who had been EDCing the same Leek for years. I've taken some shooting classes from a retired police trainer who carries a Blur. Almost everyone I know who carries a knife daily is carrying a Kershaw. Most of them have never heard of ZT.

My first Kershaw was actually a Scamp, followed by a Vapor III. Those two inexpensive imports were the "gateway drugs" for me. These days, I own 30+ Kershaw knives, my favorites still being imports: the Lahar (Japan) and RJI (China). I waited very impatiently to get a Camber, and I love it, but I bought it for the design, not because I really have any practical use for it. I have various models of Cyclones as well, and a couple Grooves, which likewise were bought because of the designs. It's mostly the cheaper models that get regular use. Although I have bought a few that I didn't care for, I can't recall having any issues with a Kershaw. Of course, the toughest task I've ever performed with one of them was cutting various cables and cable ties (usually with a One Ton) with no ill effects.

My first ZT was a 0160 Shifter fixed blade, bought while on a "tactical" fixed blade spree. That is a knife that I could see a soldier or police officer wearing, but one that I rarely if ever see mentioned. I've since bought an 0801 and an aluminum 0770, and frankly wouldn't expect to see either in military or LE use. If a professional is going to carry a folder, I would expect it to be something small, with a fixed blade being the primary duty knife, and comments about the price of most ZTs is valid as it pertains to military/LE use. Given the number of guys (and gals) who continue to carry Gerber and Buck knives despite plain vanilla steel suggests that as long as a knife is relatively durable and holds a sufficient edge for daily tasks, something more expensive simply isn't called for. A lot of them probably aren't going to give a Benchmade or Emerson a second look either, if there isn't a need. Ka-Bar still sells a lot of knives based on name recognition as much as anything, while Cold Steel and SOG have mastered the art of marketing. A whole lot of people who like their designs aren't going to mind AUS8 if the price is right.

A lot of us almost inevitably look down at knives below a certain price point or below our personal standard for materials, but an awful lot of people with legitimate needs for reliable knives are still voting with their wallets, mostly for 420HC and 440C and 1095 bearing familiar brand names that have decades of history. Kershaw is probably more recognized for the familiar red packaging at big box stores, and ZT is still sort of the new kid on the block in comparison.

 

[bodog]

Honestly I wouldnt even think twice about the marketing. The whole military/LEO thing was what I think ZT started as but it became something quite different. In the beginning ZT knives werent even intended for the general public. But they found their ways into the hands of people determined to get their hands on them and became quite popular. They had expensive models like the 301 but they also have some very decent lower cost offerings like the scavenger. Somewhere along the way they opened up to the dealers and allowed the general public to buy the knives and I think the original concept of what ZT knives was supposed to be evolved.

Agreed, and there's nothing wrong with that. But they've given up the "for military and law enforcement" when they started raising the costs for most of their products past $150. Most of these guys working where the rubber meets the road simply cannot afford knives that expensive.

I did take offense to the other guy saying that the men and women protecting him and his family should have taken a different career path because they can't afford expensive knives. He effectively crapped on honorable people putting their lives on the line to protect him and his family because they don't earn enough money to purchase expensive perishable goods, which most people think knives are.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Agreed, and there's nothing wrong with that. But they've given up the "for military and law enforcement" when they started raising the costs for most of their products past $150. Most of these guys working where the rubber meets the road simply cannot afford knives that expensive.

I did take offense to the other guy saying that the men and women protecting him and his family should have taken a different career path because they can't afford expensive knives. He effectively crapped on honorable people putting their lives on the line to protect him and his family because they don't earn enough money to purchase expensive perishable goods, which most people think knives are.

I fully agree. At the very least I think ZT should change its marketing if most of its products cant be afforded by those they claim to cater to. And as for disrespect to military and law enforcement? No excuses are excusable. Ill be the first to admit that I dont care for violence and I dont care for a lot of what goes on in the world. But simply view our servicemen and women as well as LEO to deserve the utmost respect regardless of my views. Because I dont look at them as being something I wouldnt want to be. In fact its quite the opposite. They are everything I would aspire to be yet am admittedly too much of a coward to ever become. With that said thanks for your service and your continued service as a LEO. And I am sorry that we have such disrespectful people on the forum.

 

[Pilot1]

Just doing this to make sure you don't try to cover up what you said. It's pretty jacked up.

I did edit my post, as I do think it was disrespectful so my apologies. I just get a bit tired of hearing these knives are overpriced, or "out of reach" because they are not. Remember some EMT's, LEO, Military, Fire, etc are buying Hinderers or customs.

 

[bodog]

I fully agree. At the very least I think ZT should change its marketing if most of its products cant be afforded by those they claim to cater to. And as for disrespect to military and law enforcement? No excuses are excusable. Ill be the first to admit that I dont care for violence and I dont care for a lot of what goes on in the world. But simply view our servicemen and women as well as LEO to deserve the utmost respect regardless of my views. Because I dont look at them as being something I wouldnt want to be. In fact its quite the opposite. They are everything I would aspire to be yet am admittedly too much of a coward to ever become. With that said thanks for your service and your continued service as a LEO. And I am sorry that we have such disrespectful people on the forum.

Lol, your tax dollars going into my bank account which feeds and clothes me and my family is thanks enough

But seriously, you're welcome, just live your life as happily as possible without worrying too much about the bad guys and the crap they bring to society. That's the real satisfaction of the job.

And making it through an adrenaline pumpint, high stress, butthole puckering situation on top with a bad guy in jail. That's also pretty damned satisfying.

 

[celtic11]

^^^^^^Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. You can by LNIB, higher end ZT's on the Exchange for much less than new, often no more than $150 or so. I don't think that is out of reach for most LEO, or military.

Its not. Why do you think he picked an 0454 as his example? Why not a 0350 or 0566?

 

[bodog]

Its not. Why do you think he picked an 0454 as his example? Why not a 0350 or 0566?

My wife carries an 0566BW. It's a really good little knife and I'd put it in my rotation if I could pry it away from her every once in awhile. Having 2 or 3 models still currently in production out of what, 15(?) or so that are within reach of most guys on the front line necessitates the question if the company is still in it to serve those who serve and should be marketed as such. I don't care that much in the end. I know enough to know what serves my purposes and where to find several options that are reasonably priced.

 

[Wolverine666]

I like ZT. The 0550 is a classic in my book. The only thing that holds me back from buying anymore ZT's is the fact that they are all flippers aside from the 0550. I hate flippers.

 

[jginnane]

Trying a different approach to this thread --

1. Forget marketing "image", i.e., who you think is supposed to be buying/using a ZT or Kershaw. Forget pricing as a result of that marketing.

2. Focus instead on actual use. Let's say hypothetically you're a fireman with an EDC. Don't even think of a model, just in general. Are there circumstances where you'd be significantly better off with a ZT? Are there specific purposes, in your every-day use, where one knife is going to be 20-50% better for the tasks you give it, because of steel, design or construction? Would that benefit be more significant than having an extra 4-6 ounces in your pocket?

I don't want to get into model choice. Let's assume there are approximate equivalents between models from each of the two lines. The question is, will the ZT always do that extra bit that saves a life or otherwise gets the job done?

OK ... I'm not getting through, I see. Alright then, try this for giggles: A Leek versus an 0770CF. Identical weight. Both extremely easy to carry. Both able to castrate a hog, if that's your wont. Question: Why the ZT?

 

[bodog]

Trying a different approach to this thread --

1. Forget marketing "image", i.e., who you think is supposed to be buying/using a ZT or Kershaw. Forget pricing as a result of that marketing.

2. Focus instead on actual use. Let's say hypothetically you're a fireman with an EDC. Don't even think of a model, just in general. Are there circumstances where you'd be significantly better off with a ZT? Are there specific purposes, in your every-day use, where one knife is going to be 20-50% better for the tasks you give it, because of steel, design or construction? Would that benefit be more significant than having an extra 4-6 ounces in your pocket?

I don't want to get into model choice. Let's assume there are approximate equivalents between models from each of the two lines. The question is, will the ZT always do that extra bit that saves a life or otherwise gets the job done?

OK ... I'm not getting through, I see. Alright then, try this for giggles: A Leek versus an 0770CF. Identical weight. Both extremely easy to carry. Both able to castrate a hog, if that's your wont. Question: Why the ZT?

I would never carry a leek for duty use, I've seen more than several break. On the other end of the spectrum, I've personally used and have seen other people use thick blades and find they don't cut well at all. There's a happy medium as long as the right steels are used. But then you go into lock strength and if a person needing a knife for more than cutting should carry a folder at all.

Personally, I think having a thin, super slicey folder with a lock that's not necessarily the strongest but is extremely reliable and a 3 to 5 inch thick fixed blade made of super strong steel with a glass breaker and edge serrations are the ticket for duty use. I find that I want to carry the same combination off duty, too. ZT doesn't offer anything like that except for maybe the 0180 that was just produced. Every other offering they have compromises something or other of what I want/need.

Something like a spyderco folder and an esee 3 or 4 or similar seems to be the right match for me. There are obviously other companies that play with knives within this realm, whereas ZT doesn't. I'm glad there are options for everyone.

 

[JuJu-]

Just try one and form your own opinion. Start small if you have to. Its the one and only true way to figure out what you like and dont, and what is in fact crap or good. Enjoy and welcome to the forum.

 

[salmonkiller]

I would never carry a leek for duty use, I've seen more than several break. On the other end of the spectrum, I've personally used and have seen other people use thick blades and find they don't cut well at all. There's a happy medium as long as the right steels are used. But then you go into lock strength and if a person needing a knife for more than cutting should carry a folder at all.

Personally, I think having a thin, super slicey folder with a lock that's not necessarily the strongest but is extremely reliable and a 3 to 5 inch thick fixed blade made of super strong steel with a glass breaker and edge serrations are the ticket for duty use. I find that I want to carry the same combination off duty, too. ZT doesn't offer anything like that except for maybe the 0180 that was just produced. Every other offering they have compromises something or other of what I want/need.

Something like a spyderco folder and an esee 3 or 4 or similar seems to be the right match for me. There are obviously other companies that play with knives within this realm, whereas ZT doesn't. I'm glad there are options for everyone.

Just out of curiosity I have a question?Could you please give us some specific examples of uses or things that you have cut while on duty that would be the tool of choice using the knife you describe as"the ticket"?Thank you for your time and insight Sir.....

 

[bodog]

Yes, tires, car seats, many boxes, rope, pallet straps, air bags, dashboard covers, plastic cuffs, and dope wrapped in thick plastic wrap. Some of those tasks do well with a thick blade with an obtuse angle for blunt and heavy work, some a thin blade with an acute angle requiring precision work.

Not to mention the need to cut seatbelts, life jacket straps, shoe strings, or, in some wild scenario, a leather duty belt. While I haven't needed them for the tasks in the previous sentence, I've personally worked with guys that did. The rest of the stuff in the first paragraph is pretty routine. Some obviously more than others.

Those are just cutting duties, not to mention other work which may be needed at any given time that knives CAN perform, regardless if they were actually designed for it, like busting open crates, windows, concealed compartments and other random things like prying apart random things or as a basic lever.

And that's just the stuff off the top of my head.

 

[salmonkiller]

Yes, tires, car seats, many boxes, rope, pallet straps, air bags, dashboard covers, plastic cuffs, and dope wrapped in thick plastic wrap. Some of those tasks do well with a thick blade with an obtuse angle for blunt and heavy work, some a thin blade with an acute angle requiring precision work.

Not to mention the need to cut seatbelts, life jacket straps, shoe strings, or, in some wild scenario, a leather duty belt. While I haven't needed them for the tasks in the previous sentence, I've personally worked with guys that did. The rest of the stuff in the first paragraph is pretty routine. Some obviously more than others.

Those are just cutting duties, not to mention other work which may be needed at any given time that knives CAN perform, regardless if they were actually designed for it, like busting open crates, windows, concealed compartments and other random things like prying apart random things or as a basic lever.

Thank you and I appreciate your insight.
best,
salmonkiller