I had never seen these things before, but the KJ Seb knockoffs are on the bay now. Dishonorable conduct on the design theft aside, I'm thinking that there's nothing illegal or against bay rules. Does anyone disagree?
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Kevin John knock offs
- Thread starter Fooj
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I had never seen these things before, but the KJ Seb knockoffs are on the bay now. Dishonorable conduct on the design theft aside, I'm thinking that there's nothing illegal or against bay rules. Does anyone disagree?
I was searching for a Ti-lock in the bay today when I came across this guy. The Kevin John titanium knife as it is called is an obvious Ti-lock fake. Made in Hong Kong I believe. I don't know about the legality of what he is doing, but it pisses me off. It should be illegal.
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Yeah, this behavior is a torquer, for sure.
KJ is pretty careful. He's got CRK, Hinderer, and Strider fakes out there. I'm not an expert in trademark/copyright law, but I don't see him using logos or the like that would get him into trouble. Grant and Gavin Hawk have been granted several patents, but I couldn't find one on the Ti-Lock. The only place I can see where KJ may have screwed up is on his XM-18 fake. Rick Hinderer has a granted patent on the lock bar stablizer: http://www.google.com/patents/US730...a=X&ei=NqU-UcfaJI3nqAHAoIHgBA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA Looks like KJ may have implemented that.
He is copying other designs as well. I have seen a "Lochsa", and a "SNG" from the same guy. The scary thing is that he is doing a frightening good job at duplicating them. I don't know why the powers to be at the Bay just don' pull the plug if your caught selling counterfeit goods regularly.
Its just ashamed that it has come to this. I knew of the CRK fakes obviously, and the Strider fakes, but the other day is the first time I have seen the Hinderer XM fakes. Though I have been away from the forums for about 6 months, not sure when they popped up. I do report them to ebay and to CRK when I see them. that's pretty much all we can do as CRK fans. They are obviously fakes. I personally would never waste a penny on one, but they do sell unfortunately, so someone is buying em.
Of what I've read, the bay focuses on illegal behavior. In terms of copying, only patents, copyright, and trademarks are protected by law. KJ is the first counterfeiter of CRK knives I've seen that 1) doesn't use protected logos (like the C enveloping the R), 2) full company name (he doesn't say "Chris Reeve Knives", just "Chris Reeve"), and 3) doesn't have authenticity disclaimers in his descriptions.
Of course, even if he isn't technically breaking the law, to give him as much hassle as possible, I certainly wouldn't discourage folks from reporting him as if he is.
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I read some info about him can't say it's true or not, but it said he was Swiss or Sweedish living in China and making knives there. I've seen a couple of his knives. The Strider SMF's G10 is not Lego and is obviously a fake. I saw his XM-18 3" which was an almost perfect reproduction, it had a hollow ground blade which I haven't seen on a real 3" XM, the flipper seemed a little small, but beside that it was a really good copy. I don't know if he can ever be held accountable since he's doing it in China.
"Kevin John" is nothing but a name the factories are putting on the counterfeit knives that they remove the illegal branding from. These are the same exact knives that they sell with the illegal branding, but with the branding removed and "Kevin John" text added. There is no "Kevin John". I've seen the same trend in the counterfeit watch world. They want to appeal to people who wouldn't buy counterfeits with fake brand names, but would buy high quality replicas with different branding.
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Simple... Money. They get a percentage of everything. I came across a guy that I thought may have been selling stolen radar detectors. I reported him. In their reply, I was encouraged to contact law enforcement myself. They did nothing.
As long as they're not liable or it doesn't create some major PR disaster, everything will continue to sell.
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That particular manufacturer does not produce knives with illegal branding... which is a good thing, because his knives are the only ones that come near the quality of the knives they are intended to be.
I spoke with a Chinese friend of mine who is into knives about the subject. According to him, the "Kevin John" producer doesn't produce knives intended to be shipped to the US. It is almost known as a name of prestige over there. There are knife collectors in China/Taiwan/Hong Kong as well, but unfortunately for them, it is very difficult to get knives such as Chris Reeve and Hinderers over there. Not only do very few get shipped over there, thus inflating the price, but people get paid quite a bit less. Comparatively, owning a Sebenza in China would be like owning a $3000 knife over here. There's just such a small market for that over there, but there is a market for knives produced and marked up at the cost of their labor... hence the Kevin John knives. Functionally and in form, they accomplish almost the same thing at a price people over there can afford. Personally, I don't see much wrong with that, outside of stealing intellectual property (which I do believe is wrong)... but I don't expect anyone to control that in China. I do wish they would change the designs slightly to something more their own, though (they do produce some original designs, which is a step in the right direction).
Unfortunately, some leak over into the US and other countries. They are however not considered counterfeit, as they are not intended to be sold as the original product, so there is really nothing that can be done about them being posted on the bay and such. They aren't stealing business from CRK, Strider, or Hinderer. People who buy them know they are buying a "Kevin John" knife, not a Sebenza. This also means they aren't tarnishing the name of the companies involved, as people aren't getting crappy products. Thus, the Kevin John knives are far from public enemy #1. While they do produce the best clones, they at least have the respect to use their own name. If you want to feel a little better about it, it is opening up the fantastic designs to people in another country who basically have zero chance of affording it otherwise. My point is, at least they aren't lying to anybody about what they are... and people who buy a Kevin John knife won't be any less likely to buy a CRK than they were before, so it really isn't hurting them.
There are however companies whose sole purpose IS to produce counterfeit products branded with others' names, which I DO believe is a problem. That causes people to get ripped off and unfairly tarnishes names. Someone who buys one of those will be out money, and companies like CRK will technically lose money, as that customer intended to buy one of their knives. Also, in the case that the customer does not know they have a counterfeit, they will be using an inferior product, which tarnishes the name of the company.
I don't know what patents Chris has on the design of his knives. I assume copyright laws would protect the logo but I'm not even sure about that. At any rate, the Chinese can make absolutely anything cheaper and a lot of things better than we can here in the states. The East has ruined many an industry in the Western world due to this fact. It will continue until they stop controlling their currency and allow the standard of living to improve such that competition for jobs and goods is comparable to the West. The industrial history of Japan is a pretty good model for this effect. Next comes South Korea. Both have raised their standards of living and allowed their currency to attain it's real value to the point that it is even occasionally beneficial for them to build things and employ people in the states. The availability of skilled, educated labor and cheap transportation can only go so far. Of course it's much more complex than that but....
The right and wrong of IP is like nailing Jello to the wall. Defining counterfeit, copy, homage, similar, who's to say? It's just not black or white but all shades of gray. It's easier with movies, music, books etc. but with knives, it's harder. Most mfrs have decided if they can't beat them, join them and sell their knives here but made there.
Right now, it's the unaware consumer that suffers the most with CRK counterfeits and copies but the copies will get better and ultimately Chris will get hurt. Hopefully there are enough loyal enthusiasts that value the real thing and his customer service enough for him to continue to flourish. China can never come close to that service and individual attention but history says that they will equal the knives at a much lower price point.
I don't know what to think about EBay, I use them some but have been bit some as well. The brick and mortar stores are really suffering from all the on line stuff and it's a self fulfilling prophecy. The less a store stocks the more must be bought on line and the more is bought on line, the less they can stock. EBay can and should eliminate the counterfeits using the CRK logo but I'm not inclined to think they can do anything about copies. Most of the domestic squabbles over IP have made the lawyers rich but little else. Internationally? No way.
The right and wrong of IP is like nailing Jello to the wall. Defining counterfeit, copy, homage, similar, who's to say? It's just not black or white but all shades of gray. It's easier with movies, music, books etc. but with knives, it's harder. Most mfrs have decided if they can't beat them, join them and sell their knives here but made there.
Right now, it's the unaware consumer that suffers the most with CRK counterfeits and copies but the copies will get better and ultimately Chris will get hurt. Hopefully there are enough loyal enthusiasts that value the real thing and his customer service enough for him to continue to flourish. China can never come close to that service and individual attention but history says that they will equal the knives at a much lower price point.
I don't know what to think about EBay, I use them some but have been bit some as well. The brick and mortar stores are really suffering from all the on line stuff and it's a self fulfilling prophecy. The less a store stocks the more must be bought on line and the more is bought on line, the less they can stock. EBay can and should eliminate the counterfeits using the CRK logo but I'm not inclined to think they can do anything about copies. Most of the domestic squabbles over IP have made the lawyers rich but little else. Internationally? No way.
What really bother's me is the aftermarket for the discontinued knives (i.e. the fake Regular Sebenza shown). I could give a damn about whether or not someone want to buy a fake knife, that's an individual's choice. I guarantee you that someone's going to try to pass off one of these fraud Regular Sebenzas eventually, however, so those of us who routinely shop the forums for these old knives better keep our guard up. Birth cards and other documentation just got a lot more important.
You hit the nail on the head. There have been several accounts of people receiving these fakes, even on this forum. Striders are particularly difficult to authenticate since there is usually no box or accompanying documentation sold with them. You have to keep on top of the Chinese market if you regularly deal with high end knives that they are faking. The mnandi fakes that have been coming out over the last couple of months have tricked a lot of people because there weren't clones of this knife until recently. These knives are not distinguishable by quality differences, only by misses in copying the originals. You have to know what to look for, and eventually they will correct the flaws. This has happened even in the watch world which are much more difficult items to copy. There are Rolex replicas that are so close that a 40 year watchmaker needs to call and verify the serial numbers with Rolex to determine authenticity.
RiverRat84
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I agree. I have a particular fondness for Regular Sebs and recently purchased one without box or papers. Had I not known the seller to be a stand up guy I would've been worried. He had sent it in for a refurb a couple years ago and included the invoice for the work done with the knife so that helped even more so.
Extra attention should be paid while looking through the exchange as many might not know they are selling a fake.
It's a shame all around , but fakes will be around and its up to us to keep ourselves and others informed. High end knives are a niche item and the knife community is a tight group for the most part, so keep up the good work guys and gals.
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