Kevin John knock offs

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Knock offs suck but are incredibly accurate these days.As Withanx stated,watches are frighteningly accurate and,I have to believe,much more difficult to copy than any knife.I have bought almost every knife I own these days from members of this forum because I figured no one in their right mind would attempt to post a fake here. So far I've been blessed by having the privilege to deal with upstanding citizens who go out of their way to make sure the deal is seamless.

How can one protect themselves elsewhere? What is to stop anyone from posting pics of a gen. and ultimately sending a fake? PayPal is less than useless,especially if you have actually received and signed for a package.Prove you were not sent the genuine article and the YOU did not swap it out?Prove it's a fake.

As for these Kevin John knives.when I searched flea bay,the active listings all have CR markings,Hinderer markings etc.. Therefore,they are fakes,just like "homage" watches are ...fakes.
 
People can sugar coat it all they want, no logo or not it is still theft in my eyes. The funny thing is these people have the talent to copy some of the best designs out there, why not put that talent to work and come up with something original. I mean if I could make a fake CRK, Hinderer, or Lochsa I would be trying to make a name for myself with my own designs.
 
atony said:
...... I mean if I could make a fake CRK, Hinderer, or Lochsa I would be trying to make a name for myself with my own designs.
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I agree, but they rely on the market to prove the value of a particular design, thus saving themselves from the repeated waste of trying to figure out what the market wants. They often do their own designs but seem to concentrate on the sub $10 to $30 rather than the more expensive designs.
 
Mal2 said:
I agree, but they rely on the market to prove the value of a particular design, thus saving themselves from the repeated waste of trying to figure out what the market wants. They often do their own designs but seem to concentrate on the sub $10 to $30 rather than the more expensive designs.
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Nothing like wasted talent!:D
 
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A very well done set of videos: n
http://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/

They are enjoyable to watch even if we were not talking about this topic.

In video 4 they talk about "Intellectual Property" and why patents were originally made.

I like owning originals but the sharing, copying, and improving of ideas are inevitable. it is how we progress as a society.

We don't like copies because we are fans of CRK so it feels like they are stealing from "Us". However for those outside of the group the theft of design is acceptable. We want what we can not afford. When a company can produce a product cheaper as they don't have to recoup design and development costs we as a society benefit. However we have to protect the innovator's investment which is why there are time frames for patents and copyrights. I am waiting for my wife's medication to be available as a generic as now it costs 5k a month! (thank goodness for insurance!)
 
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High-Gear said:
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A very well done set of videos: n
http://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/

They are enjoyable to watch even if we were not talking about this topic.

In video 4 they talk about "Intellectual Property" and why patents were originally made.

I like owning originals but the sharing, copying, and improving of ideas are inevitable. it is how we progress as a society.

We don't like copies because we are fans of CRK so it feels like they are stealing from "Us". However for those outside of the group the theft of design is acceptable. We want what we can not afford. When a company can produce a product cheaper as they don't have to recoup design and development costs we as a society benefit. However we have to protect the innovator's investment which is why there are time frames for patents and copyrights. I am waiting for my wife's medication to be available as a generic as now it costs 5k a month! (thank goodness for insurance!)
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I disagree with most of what you said. These people are not "improving" the CRK design, they are making copies to sell at CRK's expense. If they made one that looks like the sebenza and did not have the CR Logo on it, few would care, because there are copies in different brands of everything, just go to the grocery store.....!!!. But these guys are putting the CRK Name on the product, on the box, on the felt cloth. There is no improvement here at all, only a way, again, to make a cheap Buck off the time and effort Chris put into the design and manufacture of his knives as we know it. And the worst part of all this is, is that people that are not as CRK savy as some of us are, are buying them thinking they are getting a genuine CRK, when they are not. This also does not stop with just CRK, Strider's and Hinderer's are being copied as well and being sold as Strider's and Hinderer's....!!! I am not sure what Patent's CRK has with their knives, but I know Hinderer's does have a patent for his lockbar stabilizer, so in some ways, he may have a more of a leg up in combating these. But as Chris has stated himself, its tough, especially to go after a foreign maker and try to get some restitution for this. Its almost a no win situation................All we can do as fan's is Don't Buy Them. Eventually, they will be collecting dust at his ebay store.
 
We, as in the CRK forum people, have been familiar with Mr. Johns knives for a while now and it's not good to see them becoming more widely available. As Atony said it matters not how one tries to sugar coat it, it's a bloody poor show and Mr. John is at very best riding the coat tails of CRK by using their well known and sort after designs (as well as other makers knives). I have very poor feelings towards this sort of thing and the people that help it happen but it is a reality and frankly the norm to do stuff like that over here. I would need to step into W&C to explain my self fully so I think I'll just have to leave it at that....... :)
 
I just saw a Mnandi on their site with the CRK logo on it.

579586046_414.jpg
 
Haze said:
We, as in the CRK forum people, have been familiar with Mr. Johns knives for a while now and it's not good to see them becoming more widely available. As Atony said it matters not how one tries to sugar coat it, it's a bloody poor show and Mr. John is at very best riding the coat tails of CRK by using their well known and sort after designs (as well as other makers knives). I have very poor feelings towards this sort of thing and the people that help it happen but it is a reality and frankly the norm to do stuff like that over here. I would need to step into W&C to explain my self fully so I think I'll just have to leave it at that....... :)
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Thanks HAZE, very well put...!!!
 
This is what I'm talking about. Available right now with no disclaimer. I'm sure the seller "bought from a guy who swore it was real". Just swell....


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3mz1h3m23dmmdxqfg.jpg
 
nyefmaker said:
I disagree with most of what you said. These people are not "improving" the CRK design, they are making copies to sell at CRK's expense. If they made one that looks like the sebenza and did not have the CR Logo on it, few would care, because there are copies in different brands of everything, just go to the grocery store.....!!!. But these guys are putting the CRK Name on the product, on the box, on the felt cloth. There is no improvement here at all, only a way, again, to make a cheap Buck off the time and effort Chris put into the design and manufacture of his knives as we know it. And the worst part of all this is, is that people that are not as CRK savy as some of us are, are buying them thinking they are getting a genuine CRK, when they are not. This also does not stop with just CRK, Strider's and Hinderer's are being copied as well and being sold as Strider's and Hinderer's....!!! I am not sure what Patent's CRK has with their knives, but I know Hinderer's does have a patent for his lockbar stabilizer, so in some ways, he may have a more of a leg up in combating these. But as Chris has stated himself, its tough, especially to go after a foreign maker and try to get some restitution for this. Its almost a no win situation................All we can do as fan's is Don't Buy Them. Eventually, they will be collecting dust at his ebay store.
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Please don't misunderstand what I was saying! I was not excusing mr. Johns forgeries. I was commenting on the videos I linked to. And how people rationalize owning copies.

I then went on to make a broader point about how patents work, and why it is good they expire and technology can be shared. Copying technology or ideas is not new, nor is preventing it desireable. For example, the Sebenza introduced the Ti frame lock design. There would be no Strider or Hinderer as we know them today if they did not copy this idea, modify it, and try to improve upon it. If every knife maker had to independantly invent, design, and prove their ideas it would be prohibitivly expensive and progress would be slow. By doing this we as knife owners benefit with ever increasing quality products at better prices.

I am glad the 1911 design is not the sole property of Colt or there would be no Wilson Combat, or the AR design was not relegated to Armalite, or there would be no (1,000's of companies) in business! Because of what I have mentioned, younmay not be able to afford a Wilson, but you can own a Rock Island Armory 1911. To the casual shooter they might not be able to tell the difference, but enthusiasts will! There will always be Sebenzas for those who recognize quality, and clones for who do not. It sucks they are selling them as the real deal!
 
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DallasSTB said:
This is what I'm talking about. Available right now with no disclaimer. I'm sure the seller "bought from a guy who swore it was real". Just swell....


8eb4gc0nmzg5y1ffg.jpg


3mz1h3m23dmmdxqfg.jpg
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I know, I already saw this one, puked, then reported it to ebay and CRK.....!!!
 
High-Gear said:
Please don't misunderstand what I was saying! I was not excusing mr. Johns forgeries. I was commenting on the videos I linked to. And how people rationalize owning copies.

I then went on to make a broader point about how patents work, and why it is good they expire and technology can be shared. Copying technology or ideas is not new, nor is preventing it desireable. For example, the Sebenza introduced the Ti frame lock design. There would be no Strider or Hinderer as we know them today if they did not copy this idea, modify it, and try to improve upon it. If every knife maker had to independantly invent, design, and prove their ideas it would be prohibitivly expensive and progress would be slow. By doing this we as knife owners benefit with ever increasing quality products at better prices.

I am glad the 1911 design is not the sole property of Colt or there would be no Wilson Combat, or the AR design was not relegated to Armalite, or there would be no (1,000's of companies) in business! Because of what I have mentioned, younmay not be able to afford a Wilson, but you can own a Rock Island Armory 1911. To the casual shooter they might not be able to tell the difference, but enthusiasts will! There will always be Sebenzas for those who recognize quality, and clones for who do not. It sucks they are selling them as the real deal!
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I agree with the patents part of it. If someone wants to make a knife that looks or has features like a sebenza, no one cares because like you said, other companies make framelocks that CRK pretty much invented. But I still think, the whole point here is that these guys are Putting the CRK logo on the knives they are making, then selling them as CRK Sebenzas, Mnandi's, etc. This is the issue I have. And this is the fraud part of it that has to stop.

I have always been a huge Ruger Firearms fan. They have always taken the best parts of other companies and incorporate them into their own designs. But they are not saying their M77 is a Model 70 Winchester, or the Bolt Action is a 98 Mauser...NO. I even have a Ruger 1911 and I agree, a Colt 1911 is as hard to get as a Hinderer XM it seems and if you do, expect to pay that premium. But still, it does not have a Colt logo on it.

That is my whole point, that they are putting the name of an American Company, CRK copyrighted Logo on it and calling it real or genuine. And I am sure this is the gripe that all of us have here.

Great Post though, Many Thanks
 
I personally don't care if it has the CR logo or not, it changes nothing of the unsavory nature of whole affair. The Sebenza is one of the most recognisable knives out there and they are clearly just sailing along on that. That is just as bad and no different than using the logo in my opinion.
 
Still though, for me personally, the Logo is what does it for me. Its a copyrighted logo. How can that in any way, any country, be legal and okay to rip off.....??? There is probably no folding knife in history more counterfeited than the Buck 110, but I have never seen any with BUCK stamped into the blade. They are easily pointed out, but the logo or name is not there. Its just wrong on so many levels and we could go on and on about it.
 
withanx said:
"Kevin John" is nothing but a name the factories are putting on the counterfeit knives that they remove the illegal branding from. These are the same exact knives that they sell with the illegal branding, but with the branding removed and "Kevin John" text added. There is no "Kevin John". I've seen the same trend in the counterfeit watch world. They want to appeal to people who wouldn't buy counterfeits with fake brand names, but would buy high quality replicas with different branding.
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I too am a bit of a watch enthusiast and have been amazed at the rolex replicas out there. And obviously I'm not referring to the hysterically wild junk they sell in afghanistan. They make $1,000 rolex fakes that are worth every penny. For a $1,000 watch they are well made, high quality, and reliable. I am also simply incapable of understanding why someone would pay such money for a fake rolex. There are many nice watches you can buy for that amount of money, including some legit chinese watches (who have a lot of high end watches, but the mass produced fake market is so prominent that few outside of asia would ever know or care about companies like sea-gull. High quality fake knives make even less sense than fake watches. It's not some kind of status symbol. People on the streets or the potential customers of a real estate agent aren't going to look at your knife and think you must be successful.
 
nozyk said:
As for these Kevin John knives.when I searched flea bay,the active listings all have CR markings,Hinderer markings etc.. Therefore,they are fakes,just like "homage" watches are ...fakes.
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This isn't exactly correct. Huge difference between homage and fakes. Homage watches copy a design but make it very clear that it is not a rolex, or trying to be. They copy the design and have their own very different logo and name on the dials. Invicta does this a lot but hardly ever catches any flak for it. Buy they have watches that are almost exact copies of the 16xxx case. In these situations there is no doubt whatsoever, to even ignorant customers with a lot of money, that the homage is nothing more than a similar design. Fakes are meant to deceive and cheat people. They have a great potential of hurting the original manufacturers and allow scam artists like this "kevin john" pseudonym to exist. The homages, imo, are completely harmless. An homage sebenza really doesn't hurt CRK at all, as people are buying them because they can not afford or not willing to afford the real thing.
 
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The right and wrong of IP is like nailing Jello to the wall. Defining counterfeit, copy, homage, similar, who's to say? It's just not black or white but all shades of gray. It's easier with movies, music, books etc. but with knives, it's harder. Most mfrs have decided if they can't beat them, join them and sell their knives here but made there.
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Federal law as written and interpreted defines counterfeiting trade-marked goods quite clearly. The intent is to protect the end-consumer. There is a chronically underfunded enforcement task force that keeps busy seizing goods and putting people in federal prison - where there is no time off for anything. You serve every day. Maybe the criminal's lawyers, who have little success getting them off, should try the "jello defense." I am sure federal judges, whose sense of humor is surgically removed, will get a big laugh.

[quite]18 USC § 2320 - Trafficking in counterfeit goods or services
...
(b) Penalties.—
(1) In general.— Whoever commits an offense under subsection (a)—
(A) if an individual, shall be fined not more than $2,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both, and, if a person other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000; and
(B) for a second or subsequent offense under subsection (a), if an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $15,000,000.[/quote]
 
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