Knife Show Question

Kohai999 said:
Kevin, you never know until you ask. I wasn't always a "high profile collector"...was Average Joe for YEARS, even when I had my knife shop, and some people knew about it. IF you don't pick up the phone and ask the maker to deliver a knife at the show...you won't get a knife delivered at the show. Larry Fuegen delivered TWO knives to me at the AKI 18 months after I ordered them...that is right, 18 months.

The order was placed, and I happened to be going to the 2005 AKI, asked Larry to accommodate that, and didn't leave empty handed. When I placed that order with Larry, it was 2004, and was not on the radar screen very much at all. Being respectful and showing a sincere interest in the maker's work goes a long way in getting that maker to accommodate a delivery request....Larry didn't much know me from anyone in 2004.

You also have to know what you want.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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You make a good point Steven as "high profile" status is most always earned by the collector via investing many hours usually over many years. That's time, work and money.

However, that doesn't help much in taking the bad taste out of average Joe's mouth as he sees great knives only in the reach of the few.

Another note-worthy point, is that sometimes a sought after maker will create a knife for a specific collector for a show or out of sequence of his order list just because he wants to make the specific knife the collector is asking for.
 
Kevin: Your point is valid. But, as STeven said, If someone calls me up and says they are interested in a knife, and I'm bringing some to a show, I will probably hold it for them.

Of course, I'll want to get a sense of their commitment to buying the knife before-hand, and I probably wouldn't agree to wait until Sunday unless they had already agreed to purchase it. But, if they are coming Friday afternoon but can't be at the show when it opens because of work or something, I wouldn't hesistate to hold it. Again, I get some good brownie points for this.

Now, if the guy says he'll be there at 3PM on Friday and doesn't show by say, 4 or 5PM, then all bets are off. That's what phones are for!

Remember, it's a contract. Contracts work great when both sides honor them.

For some of my favorite customers, I just build them something I think they will like. Watching a customer's jaw drop is the best part of the whole weekend! Of course, you need to know your customer to do this, and telling them there is NO PRESSURE to take the knife before you show it to them helps, too.

Go into a good restaurant sometime and if you think you would like most of what's on the menu, ask the server to have the chef "surprise you". You will probably get the best meal you ever had. Why? Personal pride. You are giving the chef free reign, and they usually respond by taking it up a notch. Or three.
 
RJ, there's good points on either side of an interesting discussion here.

On one side the point can be made that in fairness ALL collectors should be given equal opportunity to purchase the more sought after knives, especially at shows. The newer and/or less-known collector who drives 500 miles to a show and waits in line for 2 hours to be first to a maker's table is not wrong in believing he should get the opportunity to purchase a particular knife.

On the other hand, a point can be made that the collector who has invested Many hours over many years in supporting and progressing the knife community and building relationships should have EARNED an advantage in acquiring the most sought after knives.
I think this is basically what we are addressing in this thread?
 
Kevin: That's a nice idea, but, how is it possible for a maker to accomplish that in reality? I would love to know, because I'd be the most successful knifemaker in the industry if I could guarantee every customer the knife they wanted.

First off, to give everyone who wants a knife from a particular maker the same chance of getting it, they all would have to be present at the maker's table a the same time, right? So, that mean's I'm not able to sell knives when the show opens, and I have to do some sort of lottery.......(?)

It's not going to happen! What day would I do that on? Friday, Saturday or Sunday? Do I tell people who are there first thing Friday that they have to wait? Unhappy customers, before I even start....

If I do a lottery, how am I supposed to be sure that no other maker is having a lottery at the same time? I have done lotteries-People who really wanted to be in it FORGOT TO SHOW UP at the appointed time. Maybe I should get those light-up thingies they give out at restaurants!

Assuming I overcome these obstacles, what do I do when there are 50 people wanting to buy the 15 knives I have to sell? If three of the drawn tickets are to my "friends" How do I overcome the perception of a rigged lottery?

I tried the lottery as a way to deal with (the reality) of not having enough knives for my customers and my dealers. It sort-of worked, but, ultimately I wasn't as satisfied with it as I thought I would be. And I made people sign their tickets/stubs and permitted only one entry per customer, and displayed the picked tickets afterwards.......

In my last post, I never said that I would have treated any other customer different than STeven. Because I wouldn't have. Just to clarify, I have done exactly what I did for STeven for customers who I never met until they came by for their knife. And, STeven's knife was the last one I finished, because I needed to have knives on the table for the general public. STeven understood that he might not get his knife at the show, but he was willing to wait if necessary.

If the knifemaker is honest with his customers, and truly makes an effort to do what he says he will, I believe the collectors will see that. I think that the majority of kniemakers would like nothing moe than to be able to provide EVERY customer with the EXACT knife they wanted. But it's just not possible.

If a knifemaker flat out lies, breaks agreements, sells knives out from under customers, changes the rules, "fixes" lotteries or whatever, then, the customers will also see that. The question is, how will the customers react to getting screwed-over?

Lastly, customers (incorrectly) equate a maker's excellence by how quickly their tables empty. Which is why so many makers work so hard to have empty tables as early as possible.
 
I hope I am not missing out on any important points you guys are making, and I am not a high profile maker, most of the people that have bought my knives have not been sophisticated or high profile collectors but anyone that want's one of my knives, and want's me to deliver it at a show will get it, that's any collector or Joe-off-the-street. I deliver at shows whenever it suites the parties involved. I am not saying I would slide anyone in earlier on my wait list (a little over a year) or give anyone special treatment. All it takes is placing an order. Is this unusual? Are there problems with this with buyers?
 
I think we are talking more about the differences between attendees (buyers and viewers) than we are the makers. Generally the makers are at shows to sell knives more than to exhibit them. Attendees go for two reasons, some go to buy knives but many go to just look at them. The people that are really serious about buying knives are always going to get the makers attention before the people that want to look at a lot of knives and maybe buy one.
 
I think you guys are missing my point and I'm sure it's because I'm not presenting it very well. Sorry.
Perhaps, I will try to re-state it when I have more time.
 
Kevin

I would echo what STeven said before - I first met RJ many years ago, and in fact I bought my first custom knife from him...but i was hardly an "important collector" :D

I've gone to the NY area shows almost every year, often with my son, and always say hi to RJ - some years I've bought a knife, some years not.

One year, I emailed him ahead of time, asked if he might make me a particular knife, and he said he'd have it at the show...and he did. However, I stupidly forgot my money :p
He said, no problem, handed me the knife and said, pay me later - I sent him a check. Would he have done that for someone he didn't know? Maybe, but probably not. Would he have made the knife for someone who asked ahead of time - sure!

I've done this with Don Hanson and some other makers as well, and it is a great way of doing it and a great way to get to know the makers. Besides, what's the worst the maker can say? No? You can still go to the table at the show :D

Now, I still say hi to RJ every show....but my son Will, whom I used to tote around at the shows, is 5" taller than me and I've got alot more grey hair ;)
RJ knows Will and I know about RJ's boys. And from time to time, I still check with him ahead of a show to see if he might bring me something special:D

That doesn't mean he doesn't bring other knives, or that some new collector won't get a "fair" shot at a knife, because the ones I ask about are "in addition" to what RJ already planned to bring -best of both worlds to me

Bill
 
Oh, and FWIW....that first knife was a hunter with M2 steel, burl maple handle, sharp as the dickens....and I still have it!

Bill
 
I'm not addressing RJ specifically or the way he offer his knives. His story regarding Steven, just IMO fortified Pete's opening post and his complaint of traveling to shows, getting there early only to find makers have sold out before the show.

I will offer another true story (will not give names) of a collector travling 550 miles to a major show this year to purchase a specific maker's knife. He waited in line 2 hours to get in and was the first to the maker's table only to find a "high profile" collector with an exhibitor's badge had just purchased the knife (before the show opened). The collector will never attend the show again.

Not implying the maker was wrong here, especially since in these hard times many makers are not going to turn down an opportunity for a sure sale waiting for one that may materialize latter. However whether a makers sells to a dealer the night before a show, to a "high profile" collector before a show or makes a knife on short notice to deliver to a "high profile" collector at a show or sells a knife to a "high profile" collector who is not even at the show it's putting a bad taste in the mouth of average joe collector as he see these special knives pass beyond his reach. And it's a very good chance he will stop going to shows.

On the other hand perhaps "high profile" collectors who have put many hours and many years into promoting and progressing the community and building relationship deserve first shot at the special knives.

You tell me?
 
Kevin

obviously I don't speak for RJ.... but I don't consider myself a "high profile collector"

I mean, I do have what I consider to be a nice collection, one that has been acquired over years. Some have been bought from dealers, some at shows, some from other collectors and some commissioned from makers. Some have been purchased after "winning" lotteries from makers at shows.

I think I've bought knives in pretty much every way possible :D

As we all did, I started as a "new collector", and now I consider myself "experienced" though not necessarily "high profile"

I don't think commissioning a knife and PICKING IT UP at a show is any different than having him ship it to me...it is just more fun! Sometimes my "pick-up" knife has stayed on the makers table til the end of the show, and I would hope that in that "role" it might give a new collector an idea of what is possible, or spark a conversation with the maker - and all that is good :D

Again, most knifemakers have websites these days, and most post what shows they are attending - so I don't see that getting in touch with a maker before a show is any big deal - even a "new" guy can use email :p

He/she can ask the maker whatever they wish, and again, what's the worst that can happen - the maker says "no" to your idea?

As always, communication is the key - how many times do we all hear that??

As far as your example, did the new guy speak with the maker before the show? If not.....well you know where I'm going with that :D

Bill
 
Hi Kevin: I think I understand the points being made in this thread, and, I have been enjoying this thread all weekend. What I am trying to show, obviously from my perspective as a maker, is this:

Buying and selling knives at a show requires two parties, both of whom come with widely varying goals and objectives. Both sides need to understand what they can do to help them accomplish their goals, and to understand how their decisions affect the other side. Both sides can probably do some things to help themselves, and in the process, help the other side. Pretty simple really, but I'm a simple guy!

My previous posts hopefully served to show how it is possible for a customer to procure a knife at a show without all the stress an uncertainty of doing it the usual way. But it's just one scenario.

I have heard and seen some things at shows lately that bothered me. I guess that's why I have put so much effort into this thread. Personal integrity is a big, big thing for me. And, in the business of custom knives, it is pretty apparent to me that it is important to the customers as well. So, it is important to the industry as a whole.

SO, if a maker tells his customer that he will sell him a knife at 11AM when the show opens, and sells it in the pit the night before, I'm not good with that.

If he tells his customers to meet him at the pit the night before, and sells all his knives in the pit before the show opens, at least he did what he said he would. But, he needs to understand that he will still probably get a few dirty looks the next morning. I'm OK with that.

Lastly, what I personally think is not relevant to anything, I am just giving my opinion.
 
Hi Bill.
I don't consider myself a high profile collector either, however I do consider myself a serious collector as I put a lot of time in it thus take it very serious.

As far as the collector in my story contacting the maker in advance, I don't know.
As I stated earlier in this thread the CKCA gets a surprising amount of e-mails from both members and non-members. Some are positive and there's others where collectors are venting about something they feel is wrong. And of course we get the "what do you know about this knife" and what's it worth" e-mails. It's all good though as it's part of what the CKCA does.

RJ, I have enjoyed this thread too. A lot of good productive discussion provided within.
 
I think this thread has been quite illuminating in general, and I hope that the new collector types find it and read it!

I've been collecting knives since 1985, but believe it or not, being a "Northern boy" I never went to Blade until last year- for my 50th B-day !!!

Apparently, I had the "birthday luck" as I was "picked" for a knife at the CKCA dinner, then again at the Artisans of Cutlery exhibit/booth on Saturday :thumbup: Never got picked for anything at a show before that - go figure

I've met a BUNCH of great people through my interest in knives - makers, collectors, photographers - and become friends with lots of them. I have had VERY few bad interactions, but I am a "glass half full" kinda guy anyway, so I never thought twice about them, just moved on.

My advice FWIW - makers are a great bunch, if you have ANY questions, just get in touch! If he/she doesn't get back to you, well, then you know what you need to know (assuming your contact info is good - like from their website!)

plus, with the advent of the Internet it is SIMPLE to check out a maker, and solicit advice from more experienced collector types. If you can't find anything - ask your kids to search:p

Bill
 
Back from the Guild Show and I thought this thread would be over...thanks for keeping it going.

First...NOTHING IN LIFE IS FAIR! Surely your mom and dad taught you that early on..

Second...High Profile Collectors are only such...because they and the maker's they work with promote themselves to be High Profile Collectors. I'm not saying it is a bad thing...but it is what it is.

I guess I would be considered a "High Profile Custom Knife Dealer"...due directly to the fact I promote myself, my business and the makers I work with....among other things in the custom knife world.

When I think of STeven, Roger, Kevin, Dave, etc. I don't think of them as "High Profile Collectors"...more of very knowledgeable collectors. Each with a substantial knowledge of the market in which you can find the knives that they buy.

There are collectors out that who have Million Dollar knife collectors that many of us don't know or even have heard of.

"average joe collectors"...whatever that category is?????

Quite frankly that is what the majority of the custom knife market is about. Someone posted in another thread that he considers less than $1,500...the low end market. LOL! Then the custom knife market is made up of about 90% low end knives.

NOTE: Many of the "High End Knife Makers" (above $1,500) are the ones whose waiting lists have taken the biggest hit in the last 2 years. Which may lead some to think that the overall custom market has really suffered...which leads to why the shows may be suffering. Perception.

NOTE: I was at the Guild Show this weekend...results...Some makers sold out, some sold some and some makers sold nothing. Again, this has been the same at every show (except AKI) for at least the last 25 years.

THOUGHT (LIGHT BULB GOES OFF)...Now I'm not picking on Josh here, but many of the maker and promoters who put on shows, Make (makers) and Some promoters Buy/Sell/Trade what would be considered by Josh's definition as "High End Knives".

Given that the overwhelming majority of knives bought and sold at a show are by "average joe collectors" who buy "low end knives"..perhaps these High End Makers and High End Collectors should maybe...just maybe...merely a suggestion. Perhaps re-focus the show to them. Lets say 80% of the market as opposed to 20% of the market. Again...just a thought.

Ok so back to being fair..and again...life is not fair.

As someone who stands on the sellers side of the table (usually) I a am a big and of "First Come..First Served". Then again....Life is not fair...nor are knife shows.

Back to perception:

How many collectors feel it is no longer worth the time, effort and money to travel to a show?

That:

The High Profile Collectors will get first pick (read the very best knife) a maker has to offer.

That the High Profile Collectors will get the exhibitor badges form the makers and get in the show early.

That Dealers get knives before people coming to the show.

That some guy is sneaking in the show before it opens carrying an empty box

That Collectors are meeting with makers in their rooms or bars the night before the show.

ETC......

Yep, all are true...doesn't mean you shouldn't go to the show...just means you should:

Contact the maker before the show (STeven's example)

Be realistic about your chances of getting a particular knife from a particular maker. If they only have a drawing on Friday or are only bringing 2-3 knives to the show. If you can't get there till Saturday chances are you are not going to get one of "THOSE" knives.

The reality is for those behind the table it is about selling their knives...all of them.

The other reality is that if you contact a maker before hand..you may get a knife

As well meeting the maker face to face and talking to them. More than likely you will get your knife in the future prior to that faceless person from the Internet.

Shows, beyond, the knives are about personal relationships and education. Both will go along way to helping you get the knife you really want!
 
Guys I have to echo Les's sentiments what in life is fair

You have to work the angles call the makers early see if they will hold a knife till you get there like STeven mentioned have orders set to come due at a show thats what I did with Mr.Foster last year at blade.

STeven and I scheduled a knife show for Jason Knight in our room the night before blade so that gave us pretty much first dibs

For years when Phill Hartsfield would attend the NY show I would ask if I had an order due to please bring it to the show he would always oblige

Point is you have to apply yourself network and if you do happen to get to a makers table and there is a knife you are interested in pull the trigger sometimes that means a knife later on in the show that you would of rather had you have to pass up on but thats life and in time you will learn. I am far from a big collector but the bigger dogs I know always seem to have a game plan


by the way I guess I am the average Joe collector:D
 
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Yes, a very good thread.

Kevin, I see your point more clearly now, I think we can all agree that empty tables at a show don't do any of us any good, the more empty tables, the more it hurts all of us. It's not good for the show, the buyers, lookers or the makers, but try to tell that to the maker that has a chance to break the tension early, have all his years of hard work pay off and enjoy the show for a change.

I sure would have hated to disappoint a dedicated buyer the way the guy in your example was and I sure hope he would have called me ahead of time, I would have done anything I could to accomodate him, VIP tickets, preview in pictures over email, hold back some he might have been interested in, whatever.

It is my intention to never sit behind an empty table, if I am ever fortunate enough to be in that high of demand, I think I would do what I am doing now.
At Blade this year I had 13 knives on the table, seven were already sold when I left home for the show, two of which were being delivered at the show, the remainder of the sold ones were brought to help fill up the table and help generate future orders. The other six were for sale.

It is sometimes hard for attendees to a show to remember that the show is for the makers too, there's a lot of stress there, we have some pretty thin profit margins, (I don't know how some of them can do it). It's make or break time, we've made some sacrifices to be there, and we gotta justify some stuff, like the shop expenses, all that time spent "playing" in there, the tools, airplane tickets, and hotel rooms that could just have well been to and in Cancun. We want to be successfull and feel like it is all for something. The guy that sold out in the pit went a few years before he was able to do that, unless his name is Kyle ( Edit: :D I only mention Kyle because he is such a phenomenon, more the exeption than the rule, my intent was not to imply that he sold out in the pit before the show, only that those that have the ability to sell out early in a show have earned it.) and Kyle deserves it too, he's worked hard and paid his dues.

It's a little hard for me to fault the guy that has worked that hard get where he's at, but we all sign an agreement to go to the whole show, it's short sighted to leave a table empty, you gotta remember the little people that helped put you there.

Anyway, just one man's opinion, I've probably blabbed enough, for now anyway.
 
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When I would go to the NYC show back in 1985 on, I thought all shows were like that.....great stuff, awesome makers, frequently sold out early, cards on the table, and that is that....didn't help much that I was still a teenager, and looked it.

......BUT.....you know, Pat Crawford, Ron Gaston, Corbett Sigman and other makers all had amazing stuff on their tables on Saturday or Sunday, and the prices were good, and they were (and ARE) GREAT gets for a beginning collector....and that is what I purchased, and still have some of in my collection, so many years later, and I am a "High Profile Collector"(if you haven't gotten this yet, it is written, tongue firmly in cheek).

So.....you go to a show, and you want to get that Kit Carson knife, that Tom Mayo, that John Young....and you didn't do your homework, and you didn't contact the maker.....tough crap, you didn't get it....lesson #1.....an unprepared and uncommunicative collector gets what the more "seasoned" or "aggressive" collector did not take.

If the maker does a lottery, you have a shot....a small shot, but it is still worth entering(and for now, free with the price of admission)....enter the lottery, and quit your bitching.

I'd like to walk around life with my pockets open, catching money falling from the money tree, and would like to get free knives in the mail all of the time. My last Mayo order that was delivered at Blade was placed over two years ago, and I sent Tom the money before the show started.

All this said.....I truly understand that many collectors would like to go to a show, and see a selection of knives and go "shopping" and at some regional shows like the OKCA show in Eugene, Oregon, the Chicago Show or the Guild Show, you probably still can, but for "hot" makers, this is an unrealistic expectation...you have to be proactive...they are hot for a reason.

You know why Jason did a mini-show in our room at Blade? Because he knows Joe and I are his friends, he trusts us, and we could bring people up to the room that would clean out his inventory in 20 minutes, all the while proffering good whiskey and great sea stories.:D No hassle, no BS, and fun while we were all at it.

I thought this was a good thread too....may you all benefit from hard work and detailed research.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Shoot, I go to shows with the mindset that I'm there to have fun, see old friends, make new ones, and dig out a few treasures (like a raccoon turning over all the stones in a stream bed) where I can - sure, I wear steel-toe boots on opening day and have been known to be a little hyper-aggressive to the point of almost knifing a few guys...but believe me, once opening day is over and we're kickin' it in the hospitality suite, I'm about as nice a guy as they come. Hell, sometimes I even wear slippers on day two... ;)
 
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