Knife you could rely on for survival

[danbot]

Eseemen.

I have an old Utica Sportsman that I think is 1095, and a Schrade USA Sharpfinger. I'd take either of those just fine.

I have the Mora Companion in carbon and another Companion in stainless. Wouldn't matter to me which, I like both.

The whole "carbon steel is worthless next to stainless steel" thing just makes me chuckle. It's a wonder Lewis and Clark didn't plop their butts down in St. Louis and refuse to move west until somebody brewed them up some stainless.

Good point! Here's another.
When stainless steel knives were first introduced a lot of people were not all that impressed with them compared to what they were used to. They were harder to sharpen and they didn't take as keen of an edge. That was not a great trade off when they were use to taking care of their knives.
Disintegrating rust didn't seem to be a huge concern.

 

[Yonose]

For a small knife, stainless is fine. If you decide to use a big knife(as I do) the best choice would be a compromise or semi stainless steel, like infi or A2, maybe even 3v, if it has to resist rust to a certain degree. Otherwise 5160 is likely as good as it gets.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Is that knife unique? Or do you still make them?

. The Bush Wacker Model? I made three of them about 18 years ago! More of a cross between a short sword & a broad Axe! They were a special order from the biggest Man’s Man I’ve ever known that lived and breathed Hunting & fishing ..Retired Policeman that lived in the area, Think he moved to Bend Oregon.

 

[Yonose]

. The Bush Wacker Model? I made three of them about 18 years ago! More of a cross between a short sword & a broad Axe! They were a special order from the biggest Man’s Man I’ve ever known that lived and breathed Hunting & fishing ..Retired Policeman that lived in the area, Think he moved to Bend Oregon.

Looks like it would make a killer self defense knife as well!!

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Looks like it would make a killer self defense knife as well!!

Offensive too! The blade is 12” long and the handles were 13” long. plenty of reach!

 

[Gaston444]

Good point! Here's another.
When stainless steel knives were first introduced a lot of people were not all that impressed with them compared to what they were used to. They were harder to sharpen and they didn't take as keen of an edge. That was not a great trade off when they were use to taking care of their knives.
Disintegrating rust didn't seem to be a huge concern.

That was true then, but we have more aggressive and capable sharpeners today.

Another factor was geometry: Because stainless wore out factory abrasives faster (a significant cost difference), stainless knives were often not ground as thin, even when of the same model as a Carbon version (this probably did not apply to Randalls). I have seen 3 Sabatier Jeune knives from the 1940s and 50s, two stainless and one Carbon, all identical looking models (a sort of French Kabar), and the two stainless versions were ground much thicker and duller than the supposedly identical Carbon example: There was no comparison in finesse or ease of sharpening. Once fully re-ground to 0.010", the stainless knife became somewhat comparable: Still harder to sharpen, but a comparable and longer lasting edge.

Even today, most stainless outdoor fixed knives, outside of Randalls, are ground to 0.040" at the edge shoulders (or even thicker as a convex equivalent, such as the San Mai Trailmaster): This is absurdly thick. Randalls are barely half that, hollow ground, and yet hold up quite well.

In those days, there were fewer quality stone sets that could do a heavy reprofiling/thinning job: There was a lot of junk hones that could not handle anything difficult. Thicker stainless edges, and the usual worn out single grit hones meant the typical stainless outdoor knife had the thick rounded edge of a butter knife.

Faced with using simple stones of uncertain grit and surface stability (as I used until the mid 90s: Even from the same brand, coarse stones varied greatly in how they would keep their shape when sharpening: Stainless would routinely create uneven "grooves" in them, or simply "dip" them into an uneven curved shape), I also would have preferred Carbon steel in the 1980s and even the 90s: No big Carbon steel factory knives were offered. Today diamond hones mean Carbon is no longer necessary, yet now almost all the big factory knives are Carbon...

Gaston

 

[Yonose]

That was true then, but we have more aggressive and capable sharpeners today.

Another factor was geometry: Because stainless wore out factory abrasives faster (a significant cost difference), stainless knives were often not ground as thin, even when of the same model as a Carbon version (this probably did not apply to Randalls). I have seen 3 Sabatier Jeune knives from the 1940s and 50s, two stainless and one Carbon, all identical looking models (a sort of French Kabar), and the two stainless versions were ground much thicker and duller than the supposedly identical Carbon example: There was no comparison in finesse or ease of sharpening. Once fully re-ground to 0.010", the stainless knife became somewhat comparable: Still harder to sharpen, but a comparable and longer lasting edge.

Even today, most stainless outdoor fixed knives, outside of Randalls, are ground to 0.040" at the edge shoulders (or even thicker as a convex equivalent, such as the San Mai Trailmaster): This is absurdly thick. Randalls are barely half that, hollow ground, and yet hold up quite well.

In those days, there were fewer quality stone sets that could do a heavy reprofiling/thinning job: There was a lot of junk hones that could not handle anything difficult. Thicker stainless edges, and the usual worn out single grit hones meant the typical stainless outdoor knife had the thick rounded edge of a butter knife.

Faced with using simple stones of uncertain grit and surface stability (as I used until the mid 90s: Even from the same brand, coarse stones varied greatly in how they would keep their shape when sharpening: Stainless would routinely create uneven "grooves" in them, or simply "dip" them into an uneven curved shape), I also would have preferred Carbon steel in the 1980s and even the 90s: No big Carbon steel factory knives were offered. Today diamond hones mean Carbon is no longer necessary, yet now almost all the big factory knives are Carbon...

Gaston

Which stainless steel would be best in a big factory knife? The only recent big stainless I own are in 440c (from EntrekUsa) and 12c27(Bear and Son). I think Spyderco is coming out with a bowie in cpm154. These knives are not “choppers,” for which most carbon blades are promoted. The 12c27 I rolled the edge pretty good but it was very hard wood and the steel wasn’t thick so I won’t use it again for chopping

 

[Planterz]

That was true then, but we have more aggressive and capable sharpeners today.

Another factor was geometry: Because stainless wore out factory abrasives faster (a significant cost difference), stainless knives were often not ground as thin, even when of the same model as a Carbon version (this probably did not apply to Randalls). I have seen 3 Sabatier Jeune knives from the 1940s and 50s, two stainless and one Carbon, all identical looking models (a sort of French Kabar), and the two stainless versions were ground much thicker and duller than the supposedly identical Carbon example: There was no comparison in finesse or ease of sharpening. Once fully re-ground to 0.010", the stainless knife became somewhat comparable: Still harder to sharpen, but a comparable and longer lasting edge.

Even today, most stainless outdoor fixed knives, outside of Randalls, are ground to 0.040" at the edge shoulders (or even thicker as a convex equivalent, such as the San Mai Trailmaster): This is absurdly thick. Randalls are barely half that, hollow ground, and yet hold up quite well.

In those days, there were fewer quality stone sets that could do a heavy reprofiling/thinning job: There was a lot of junk hones that could not handle anything difficult. Thicker stainless edges, and the usual worn out single grit hones meant the typical stainless outdoor knife had the thick rounded edge of a butter knife.

Faced with using simple stones of uncertain grit and surface stability (as I used until the mid 90s: Even from the same brand, coarse stones varied greatly in how they would keep their shape when sharpening: Stainless would routinely create uneven "grooves" in them, or simply "dip" them into an uneven curved shape), I also would have preferred Carbon steel in the 1980s and even the 90s: No big Carbon steel factory knives were offered. Today diamond hones mean Carbon is no longer necessary, yet now almost all the big factory knives are Carbon...

Gaston

What the hell are you babbling about?

Early stainless steel sucked for knives because the metallurgy and heat treat took a few decades to figure out. The steel sucking, and the poor performance had nothing to do with the frigging stones they used for sharpening.

 

[The Mastiff]

Stainless isn't as tough and used to need the thicker geometry. They have better stainless steels now, it's true. The powder process helps give better grain structure which helps a lot. Still, if I was going to design a knife for hard use I wouldn't select any stainless, powder super steel or not.

That is relative though. I have seen some stainless knives that could take a lot of abuse. 420, 420j2 etc. steels are fairly tough from the low carbon content without any powder processing but that low carbon content has it's own drawbacks for cutlery use. 440C can be really tough with the right heat treat and hardness but that makes it not ideal for cutlery. I tend to want knives at higher hardness than low to middle 50's so for me 440C isn't ideal for my knives any more than 420j.

Danbot is right about carbon steel knives though. Carbon steel doesn't just turn to powder and dissolve. With very little maintenance they last decades. They often last decades without maintenance too but they end up looking a lot worse. I wouldn't exclude a knife because it was carbon steel any more than I would exclude stainless. I do believe in trying to select the best steel for the intended use the same way we try to get the best geometry for the intended use.

When possible.

Joe

 

[guns_and_labs]

which is why Carbon steel for knives is banned by food safety inspectors from all professional kitchens.

I'm still waiting to find out on what planet this is true, as it certainly isn't true on this planet. Then perhaps we can find out how the first nations survived with carbon steel knives with no coating.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Which stainless steel would be best in a big factory knife? The only recent big stainless I own are in 440c (from EntrekUsa) and 12c27(Bear and Son). I think Spyderco is coming out with a bowie in cpm154. These knives are not “choppers,” for which most carbon blades are promoted.

Yonose! Find yourself a 60-70’s Western model 49 .. You can Chop, Slice and according to two Vietnam Vets, Skin just find with these. I have a NIB one, but it’s not for sale. Look around for one! Great knife!

 

[Yonose]

Yonose! Find yourself a 60-70’s Western model 49 .. You can Chop, Slice and according to two Vietnam Vets, Skin just find with these. I have a NIB one, but it’s not for sale. Look around for one! Great knife!

Haven’t been able to land one yet; the boulder stamped users are usually way overpriced imo
Wait, these aren’t stainless though!

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Haven’t been able to land one yet; the boulder stamped users are usually way overpriced imo
Wait, these aren’t stainless though!

I’m not an expert on these but the later ones I think may be? Still whatever the Steel is in the older ones is rumored to be what CS copied for their Trail Master etc. a good steel Carbon or SS..

 

[Ironbut]

I'd be OK with this one:

 

[hexenjager]

Haven’t been able to land one yet; the boulder stamped users are usually way overpriced imo
Wait, these aren’t stainless though!

I’m not an expert on these but the later ones I think may be? Still whatever the Steel is in the older ones is rumored to be what CS copied for their Trail Master etc. a good steel Carbon or SS..

I remembered reading this in the Bernard Levine's sub when I was doing some research while I was considering buying a W49. I hope it's ok with zzyzzogeton that I quoted him here. If not I can edit it out.

Your 3rd knife was made by Camillus 1992 to 2006. If the pitting is from actual rusting, then most likely your knife is a 1992 to 1993 or early 1994. For these 2 years, Camillus used either left over Coleman/Western blanks out of Western's 1095CV or Camillus' equivalent. At some point in 1994, Camillus shifted over to 420HC Stainless for the W49.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

I remembered reading this in the Bernard Levine's sub when I was doing some research while I was considering buying a W49. I hope it's ok with zzyzzogeton that I quoted him here. If not I can edit it out.

Thanks, I Appreciate it!

 

[hexenjager]

Thanks, I Appreciate it!

Glad to help.

 

[Higgs Particle steel]

12345

 

[craytab]

Have any of you guys been somewhere like say, woods near the coast in South Carolina and experienced a Kabar rust (on the edge of course) in a period of a few hours? I actually have. Ive seen similar things happen in Florida to a Tops Bob. Ive been in a rain storm out in a wheat field in Mississippi. My uncle is a custom combiner and goes from Mississippi to Montana every year and cuts wheat. I follow them and camp. I go trekking in the Rockies in Montana up near Canada. Its beautiful. Its literally just us and our gear. I like to fish in Minnesota.

I mean its all awesome to talk about patina and using your knife but if youve never experienced it you probably cant imagine it. I made a thread about rust prevention because Im gonna go this year like I always do. Im not engaged in a one knife scenario. For safety I dont recommend doing a ton in the outdoors by yourself. We all share the load. Im gonna bring a Bravo 1 and Gunny in 3V, we will have a folding saw, an axe. Tools. Not one knife.

A lot of you guys really need to take a couple steps back with what you know or think you know. Youre just foolish or fanboying at the very least blowing things out of proportion when I was talking about a BK2 edge rust in a short period of time. Ive freaking seen it happen. I dont know all these people you reference I assume youve dealt with some trolls and you think Im one of them.



You can do this with a stainless knife. I could make a video right now of myself doing it. Im just not gonna do that. However if you look at the DBK vid on the TOPS BOB 154 CM he uses a firesteel on the spine.

This thread exists now.

[W&C link removed]

We have an elite crew around here dont we? Lots of class, lots of experience. I mean honestly Id be embarrassed as hell to make a thread like that. Its one thing to argue in a thread but its another to do that. Thats just another level of immaturity and pathetic behavior on the internet.

Im getting notifications right now of people posting in it. lol

I have about a hundred thousand dollars worth of knives. I like to talk knives. Thats why Im here. I used to buy folders at the flea market when I was 10 years old and now I buy other things because Im older and I have money. I go all over the country every year. Theres a disconnect and you guys simply cant relate to me. Thats fine. Youre not gonna shame me off the forums. Youre gonna have to read my stuff, or if you dont like it, ignore my posts. Xenforo forums have a function to block posters, perhaps the mods turned it off, I havent looked.

Did you miss this post:

State your opinion on the question instead of your opinion of one another.

 

[Higgs Particle steel]

12345