???? Knifemaker or knifefaker ????

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Mitchell Knives said:
It's not required if everyone already knows that you are a knife maker.

For makers they are not familiar with, they just want to verify that you actually make some sort of knife.

It's just their way of keeping the bad seeds out.
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It is certainly not unreasonable and would be easy enough for a maker to take some WIP pics.
 
I agree that selling a particular knife as something it's not is not cool....

However, all this stuff that's been going on lately seems like a slippery slope.

Folks seem to like to jump on the bandwagon of "you gotta do it this way!" and "you gotta use this material!" and "you gotta use this quenchant!" or "you're not a real knife maker like me!!!!!!!" But I think many of those folks would be better off spending that energy learning how to grind a clean and crisp bevel, or do a super clean finish, or not grind the plunge cut shoulders off of their blades when they sharpen a huge secondary bevel on their blades with the beltgrinder, or not have a big ugly glue line at the front of their handles. If a guy grinds his own blade, but it looks like a dog turd, is that really make him any better???

People living in glass houses throwing stones and all.... ;) :)

I'm not putting any names here---but if you are reading this and feeling guilty or pissed at me, then maybe that's a sign ;) :foot:
 
NickWheeler said:
Folks seem to like to jump on the bandwagon of "you gotta do it this way!" and "you gotta use this material!" and "you gotta use this quenchant!" or "you're not a real knife maker like me!!!!!!!"
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Maybe I missed something, but I haven't seen any of that. No hammer-jockey vs. sparkmaker nonsense, even. Just a couple people getting noticed for outright baloney.


Just my $.02 and no, I'm not angry or guilty :)
 
Well I guess I better chime in here since my name is being run into the ground.I will admit I have used a lot of blades that I have purchased saying I ground the blade.I have also copied a lot of blades that I really liked the design and changed a few things about the design that I thought made the knife look better.Yes I should have listened to Jack when he mentioned it to me.And Bill I have no beef with you and never have.I should have paid attention to both of you.Your both fantastic knife makers and very up front about things.I have purchased a lot of blades and taken them to shows and sold them as blanks making some profit on them.I can say one thing about my work.Every handle that is on a knife that I have sold has been built by myself and every knife I have built has been built to use.I am proud of my work wether I ground the blade or not.I should have been up front about it all but I wasn"t.Anyway any knife I put on the forums in the future will be totally designed and ground by myself.No more of the short cuts or trying to pass off something I did not do.I have a little bit of talent and yes it does not pay to try and deceive anyone about any thing.To Bill and Jack my apologies and to all the other fantastic makers the same.Thanks
 
Well Chaps,
Ray manned up and I think that is enough for this thread. I will move it to TGBU, where it will remain for any who need to continue this discussion. As far as I am concerned, the subject is closed for Shop Talk.
 
R.Carpenter said:
Well I guess I better chime in here since my name is being run into the ground.I will admit I have used a lot of blades that I have purchased saying I ground the blade.I have also copied a lot of blades that I really liked the design and changed a few things about the design that I thought made the knife look better.Yes I should have listened to Jack when he mentioned it to me.And Bill I have no beef with you and never have.I should have paid attention to both of you.Your both fantastic knife makers and very up front about things.I have purchased a lot of blades and taken them to shows and sold them as blanks making some profit on them.I can say one thing about my work.Every handle that is on a knife that I have sold has been built by myself and every knife I have built has been built to use.I am proud of my work wether I ground the blade or not.I should have been up front about it all but I wasn"t.Anyway any knife I put on the forums in the future will be totally designed and ground by myself.No more of the short cuts or trying to pass off something I did not do.I have a little bit of talent and yes it does not pay to try and deceive anyone about any thing.To Bill and Jack my apologies and to all the other fantastic makers the same.Thanks
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This Disgusts me....:mad: :rolleyes:
What about the customers whom were lied to or convieniently not told the truth. Do they not deserve at least a sincere apology?
IMHO and mine only, you should be refunding these customers out of your own pocket. Your apology is good and all, but it shouldnt be needed in the first place if you had any integrity. You pulled a Tim Noble and he was banned for his actions.
 
To begin, I am not a knife maker. I am a knife collector. When I visit the knife maker's forum, I assumed that the knives being offered for sale are hand made knives unless stated otherwise. I love beautiful knives. There are many maker's on the forum that produce some outstanding work i.e., Dan Graves, Rick Hargis, Mike Stevenson, and Bill Akers to name a few (I am not including Bill's name in this list because he started this thread, but I am including it because I think his knives are beautiful and well made). To me, a hand made knife is a work of art. One that has been ground, forged and has that "individual touch". I have purchased knives off eBay from an individual who resides in Florida. He states up front that he does not make the blades but only the handles and finish work. With that said, it tells me that it is not hand made but assembled from components. To that end, I am one of the individuals who have bought from Ray Carpenter. I have purchased two of his knives thinking they were hand made. After reading this thread, I wonder? To be quite frank, I don't want to own anything that comes from Pakistan or India. I am an American, and want American made steel! Below are the threads that pertain to the knives I bought from Ray. At this point, I am disappointed that these knives were possibly not struck by hand. I suppose it is partly my fault for not inquiring more as to their origin. However, I did think they were hand made since they were offered for sale in the knife maker's for sale forum. Sorry for the long post, and I hope I have not offended anyone, That was not my intention. Just bummed out after reading this. Thanks for your time.

Jim


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=768573
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=777817
 
I guess I just have to say thank you to Bill for bringing this issue up. I think it was done knowing that a shit storm might ensue and it takes a hell of a man to bring something this ugly to the forefront.

To me this is a sad situation that brings hard gazes down on all makers on the forum. It makes people who are not knife makers or are new to customs wonder if maker A or maker B is using unscrupulous methods as well.

Personally I am nonplussed by the apology since the train has already left the station but I can appreciate that an explanation was made.

I do think that every single person that has bought a knife from this maker deserves an apology as well as an option for a full refund.

* Knife blanks being used as customs.
* Lying about the steel the knife is made of.
* Deleted posts when this thread hit.

Looks pretty deliberate and sincerity is kind of hard to accept (IMHO) after the fact.
 
DixieRambler said:
To begin, I am not a knife maker. I am a knife collector. When I visit the knife maker's forum, I assumed that the knives being offered for sale are hand made knives unless stated otherwise. I love beautiful knives. There are many maker's on the forum that produce some outstanding work i.e., Dan Graves, Rick Hargis, Mike Stevenson, and Bill Akers to name a few (I am not including Bill's name in this list because he started this thread, but I am including it because I think his knives are beautiful and well made). To me, a hand made knife is a work of art. One that has been ground, forged and has that "individual touch". I have purchased knives off eBay from an individual who resides in Florida. He states up front that he does not make the blades but only the handles and finish work. With that said, it tells me that it is not hand made but assembled from components. To that end, I am one of the individuals who have bought from Ray Carpenter. I have purchased two of his knives thinking they were hand made. After reading this thread, I wonder? To be quite frank, I don't want to own anything that comes from Pakistan or India. I am an American, and want American made steel! Below are the threads that pertain to the knives I bought from Ray. At this point, I am disappointed that these knives were possibly not struck by hand. I suppose it is partly my fault for not inquiring more as to their origin. However, I did think they were hand made since they were offered for sale in the knife maker's for sale forum. Sorry for the long post, and I hope I have not offended anyone, That was not my intention. Just bummed out after reading this. Thanks for your time.

Jim


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=768573
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=777817
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DixieRambler I certainly doubt anyone would be offended by your post. I for one certainly am not. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about Rick Hargis. One of the nicest guys I have ever dealt with on this forum. I would also add Mark Wohlwend and John w/JK Knives to the list. Although I have not purchased a knife from Bill, I have looked at them with great admiration and interest. And after seeing this thread I am more inclined than ever to purchase one of his custom knives at some point.
 
everybody makes mistakes i hope he survives this and learns. I would not know how to start making it right with the consumer but i know the truth is a good place to start. This makes me sick to my stomach!
 
I am new at this stuff so let me give it to you from the "newb perspective". I've bought many blanks from many different sources and then assembled them by making my own handles, and perhaps did some re-grinding. I took a small, full-tang bird and trout blank from PKS and ground it down into a hidden-tang, welded a bolt on etc. and fitted it with a nice stag horn with a crown. I new VERY early on, that I could only consider myself a "knife BUILDER" or "assembler" and NOT a "knife MAKER" for a long time because that is what I was honestly doing... building... assembling, NOT "making".

The day finally came where I decided that I wanted to try my hand at actually MAKING a knife so that I could say "I MADE a knife". So I found a piece of new leaf spring from a truck and made a couple designs. I annealed the steel ala the "Green Pete bonfire forge method", cut the steel, shaped two blanks using stock removal, did hollow grinds on my belt sander, heat treated it (Green Pete/wifes oven), cut up an old maple burl I've had drying for 15 years for scales, cut some brass stock to make guards, bought some nice mosaic pin stock, put everything together, did the finish work and created two fairly decent knives that I will say that I MADE and I'm proud of. I also realized that my disabilities will probably keep me from ever trying to MAKE another knife from "scratch" (the forge work, pounding, grinding etc. are just too hard on me) but who knows.

I consider myself primarily a knife BUILDER, but, I have MADE knives (two to be exact and that is EXACTLY what I tell people).

I don't sell anything I build. I build them, and give them to family and friends or keep them for myself. If I give them away, whoever I give them to will know that I "built" the knife using a "blank" someone else made, and that I did this or that grinding and the handle work.

There is a difference and it should be clearly stated so that whoever is receiving the knife (paid for or gifted) knows how it "came to be".

I've shown a number of family and friends some of the WIPs on this site which show a guy making a knife from a fist sized ball-bearing. Or making his own Damascus... or grinding a blade from a bought billet and I tell people "Now THAT guy is MAKING a knife".

There. 2.3 cents worth of "newb".
 
Karda said:
This Disgusts me....:mad: :rolleyes:
What about the customers whom were lied to or convieniently not told the truth. Do they not deserve at least a sincere apology?
IMHO and mine only, you should be refunding these customers out of your own pocket. Your apology is good and all, but it shouldnt be needed in the first place if you had any integrity. You pulled a Tim Noble and he was banned for his actions.
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The part in bold is exactly what I was thinking as I read his ever-so-contrite post. Echoing what others have said, anyone who bought one of these knives got something very different from what they thought they were getting. That applies both to the workmanship (using blanks instead grinding blades yourself), but also, maybe even more egregiously, to the materials (claiming it was ATS-34 when in fact it was a far lesser steel).

So I second what Karda said about refunds to the customers being in order. That would be a much more meaningful demonstration of contrition than a mere apology -- offered only after being called out publicly, no less -- by someone whose word couldn't be worth much less at this point.

(Disclaimer: I've never purchased one of his knives, and of course never will after this debacle, so I have no financial motive in pushing for refunds. I just want to see the people who were defrauded made whole to whatever extent possible.)

EDIT: And of course, many thanks to Bill for having the courage to post this.
 
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Liveitloud said:
DixieRambler I certainly doubt anyone would be offended by your post. I for one certainly am not. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about Rick Hargis. One of the nicest guys I have ever dealt with on this forum. I would also add Mark Wohlwend and John w/JK Knives to the list. Although I have not purchased a knife from Bill, I have looked at them with great admiration and interest. And after seeing this thread I am more inclined than ever to purchase one of his custom knives at some point.
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I like Mark's and JK knives too. Additionally, I look forward to purchasing one of Bill's knives as well. Thanks.........

Jim
 
This all seems to be about knifemakers being offended by folks doing less work for the same money.

I began my knifemaking career, after forging a few clunkers by knocking the cheap handles off of Mora knives and putting handles I liked better, this was in the 1940s and no sales were involved. Then in the 1950s I took Al Buck knives and removed the Lignum Vita handles and put stag on them.

There are thousands of folks who have begun by putting handles on blades made by other people. If there are buyers willing to pay for these knives then that is legitimate commerce. If lies are told about the material then it becomes fraud and is against the law. It is so easy to slip from fun to crime.
 
Some of my first knife sales were kits I put together. I made no bones about it, I'd be looking through Jantz, K&G or SKS catalogs at lunch and someone would point out something they liked, we'd agree on a price and off it'd go. This was pre-internet when you actually got a real catalog to mark up :) I miss those.

The point is that in no way did anyone think that I did anything other than fit handles or guards up to a finished blade. I made wayyy more money on those early kit sales than probably my first 20 bladesmith knives.
 
Liveitloud said:
I do think that every single person that has bought a knife from this maker deserves an apology as well as an option for a full refund.
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+1 to that

They need to know if they bought a blank and what the steel really is.

I'd give them more than a full refund.
 
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A. G. Russell said:
This all seems to be about knifemakers being offended by folks doing less work for the same money.I began my knifemaking career, after forging a few clunkers by knocking the cheap handles off of Mora knives and putting handles I liked better, this was in the 1940s and no sales were involved. Then in the 1950s I took Al Buck knives and removed the Lignum Vita handles and put stag on them.

There are thousands of folks who have begun by putting handles on blades made by other people. If there are buyers willing to pay for these knives then that is legitimate commerce. If lies are told about the material then it becomes fraud and is against the law. It is so easy to slip from fun to crime.
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That may be your take on it, everyones entitled to their opinion.

I look at it as a person who's abused the trust of customers, claiming they made something they didn't

........it's called fraud:mad:
 
SShepherd said:
That may be your take on it, everyones entitled to their opinion.

I look at it as a person who's abused the trust of customers, claiming they made something they didn't

........it's called fraud:mad:
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Read closely what AG said.... especially the part I made BOLD. ;)

I'd go so far as to say also.... that IF you said you made the blade and you didn't.... put that in the fraud column too.
Simply re-handling an old knife is one thing... putting your makers mark on it is another..... unless it say "assembled by:".
A. G. Russell said:
This all seems to be about knifemakers being offended by folks doing less work for the same money.

I began my knifemaking career, after forging a few clunkers by knocking the cheap handles off of Mora knives and putting handles I liked better, this was in the 1940s and no sales were involved. Then in the 1950s I took Al Buck knives and removed the Lignum Vita handles and put stag on them.

There are thousands of folks who have begun by putting handles on blades made by other people. If there are buyers willing to pay for these knives then that is legitimate commerce. If lies are told about the material then it becomes fraud and is against the law. It is so easy to slip from fun to crime.
Click to expand...
 
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