???? Knifemaker or knifefaker ????

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teacher said:
Read closely what AG said.... especially the part I made BOLD. ;)

I'd go so far as to say also.... that IF you said you made the blade and you didn't.... put that in the fraud column too.
Simply re-handling an old knife is one thing... putting your makers mark on it is another..... unless it say "assembled by:".
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oh, I did and simply reiterated it

I don't think anyone here really cares what something sells for, that's up to the customer and the seller.
 
Well, the orange USED to mean knifemaker, and now it includes craftsmen and service profiders. Sheathmakers. Knife sharpeners. You get the idea.

As a designer and sculptor, I figured I fit more in the second category. I actually make a lot more barware and other functional objects than I ever have knives.

I also wanted the appropriate membership to sell in the "knifemaker's for sale" area, as I have a mess-ton of tools and materials that I have laying around, but have yet to get around posting them.

I sure would hate to get kicked out of the "club". I spend 60% of my time here cruising the knifemaker's for sale area and the other 40% learning and occasionally sharing techniques and ideas in the Q&A forum. Sometimes I pop into the custom area, but not often.

Don't know what I mean by all this, just like my status as a craftsman and would like to keep it.
 
Sigh. This opportunity comes up regularly. Kit component maker decides that they have done enough work to the blades that they may call them handmade, or simply not divulge info.

The less said the better. Even worse is to sign the blade: the hallmark of a truly handmade/custom knife.

I have NO doubt the knives he's produced are worthy tools and even collectible to some. I also know he's spent a lot of time on them. (I made kit folders for years. Nice ones. Looked just like a custom and worked flawlessly.)

Here comes the 'BUT'.... ;)

Just be honest. Jeez. It's amazing how you can still survive and prosper when you do so. Back many years Dennis Greenbaum sold a gaggle of HIS fine folders and qualified them on this table at a show:

orig.jpg


He sold them all at good prices. He signed inside the well with a Dremel. I often promoted the term: 'Handfinished' knives, because that's what they are.

Coop
 
Crazy thread... the OP was ticked over something he himself had done in the past ( to some degree ) ?

Is it dishonest to pass pre-ground HT'd blanks off as your own ? Indeed , and it sounds as though from here on out that maker has agreed to change his ways. Kudos for him. At the prices he was selling them at , he sure wasn't getting rich !

A question for the OP , you stated:
i do use patterns of blades that i like that i didnt design
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Do you do so with permission ?

I had a few Loveless templates given to me years ago , I have never made a knife with a guard , so the handful of times I used that pattern I had to modify it to look right without the guard , and changed some other things as well. Doesn't look like a Loveless ( I couldn't pull that off in a million years ) , but I do call it a Loveless style or Modifed Loveless Design. Think I have only sold 2 , the others are for my personal use.

I had 3 Jantz blades given to me years ago , 2 are in the bottom of the safe , the same as the day I got them , 1 I added a wood handle to and it was given to a friend who needed something for camping. Heck I even have a couple kit folder knives that I got as a gift 5 years ago , they are still in the bag. Maybe my kids will build them some day.

Now , I do have a true "KIT" knife that I am working on , a two blade trapper in S30V , it was sent to me 75% complete for me to finish , I am slowly working on it. I promised Uncle Kit that I would indeed finish it someday.
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
Crazy thread... the OP was ticked over something he himself had done in the past ( to some degree ) ?

Is it dishonest to pass pre-ground HT'd blanks off as your own ? Indeed , and it sounds as though from here on out that maker has agreed to change his ways. Kudos for him. At the prices he was selling them at , he sure wasn't getting rich !

A question for the OP , you stated:

Do you do so with permission ?

I had a few Loveless templates given to me years ago , I have never made a knife with a guard , so the handful of times I used that pattern I had to modify it to look right without the guard , and changed some other things as well. Doesn't look like a Loveless ( I couldn't pull that off in a million years ) , but I do call it a Loveless style or Modifed Loveless Design. Think I have only sold 2 , the others are for my personal use.

I had 3 Jantz blades given to me years ago , 2 are in the bottom of the safe , the same as the day I got them , 1 I added a wood handle to and it was given to a friend who needed something for camping. Heck I even have a couple kit folder knives that I got as a gift 5 years ago , they are still in the bag. Maybe my kids will build them some day.

Now , I do have a true "KIT" knife that I am working on , a two blade trapper in S30V , it was sent to me 75% complete for me to finish , I am slowly working on it. I promised Uncle Kit that I would indeed finish it someday.
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TO YOU MY RESPONSE:

"At the prices he was selling them at , he sure wasn't getting rich !"

"SELLING $12.00 BLANKS FOR $200+ IS MAKING A GOOD LIVING ID THINK
AND SOME FETCHING $400.00 PLUS EVEN BETTER ID THINK???
THERE ALL DELETED NOW SO YOU CANT SEE THOSE THREADS."


#1 - First lets explain this part for you,

"Crazy thread... the OP was ticked over something he himself had done in the past ( to some degree ) ?"

I used blanks many years ago,thats what inspired me to become a "Knifemaker" As it did many folks,it was a cheap trial and error way to learn about knifemaking,since i had no one local to show me how,ok then after i got the handling part of the knifemaking down pat,i started selling them on ebay for a 1 cent starting price,never once did i say the were handmade knives,or mislead anyone,everyone knew they were made from premade blanks,since at that time ebay was flooded by the blades i was using,so i moved on in life buying knifegrinders,forges,h/t ovens and such ,and then i started teaching myself how to make handmade knives,sole authership knives,knives made from a bar or billet of steel,by me and me only,I wasnt mad over him making money i could careless i wasnt getting took,the buyers were,i knew about the situation probably a year ago,and even warned the fella several times,well others picked up on it and my name came out of his mouth thinking i was telling people or stirring sh#t an i didnt have a thing to do with it,So the day i posted this thread another email came to my inbox from a forum member that was pretty nasty and my name was mentioned again,so i posted what i knew and thats ,that!
( I WAS PISSED OVER MY NAME BEING BRUNG UP EVERYTIME HE WAS QUESTIONED ABOUT ONE OF HIS KNIVES, I HAVE A FOLLOWING AND REPUTATION I DONT NEED RUINED BY ANOTHER PERSONS PROBLEMS)

YOUR COMMENT!

A question for the OP , you stated:
Do you do so with permission ?

Quote:
i do use patterns of blades that i like that i didnt design



#2- ABOUT THE USING OF PATTERNS

IF THERE NOT STAMPED I DONT THINK ANYONE CARES IF THERE USED,AND PROBABLY NOT SOLE AUTHERSHIP EITHER OR THEY WOULD BE STAMPED OR CARRY A LOGO, TRUE?.

ASWELL I ASKED A MEMBER ONE TIME HERE ON THE FORUMS IF I COULD TRY MAKING A KNIFE PATTERNED LIKE THERES, IT WAS MATHEW BAILEY, AND MATT SAID HAVE AT IT ,IT WAS HIS RECURVE MODEL,I HAD FULL PERMISSION BY MATT HIMSELF TO DO IT, SO THAT SHOULD CLEAR THAT UP FOR YOU,BY THE WAY THE RECURVE PATTERN DIDNT COME CLOSE TO LOOKING LIKE HIS,SO IT WAS NO BIGGY,BUT I ASKED BEFORE I PROCEEDED WITH THE PROJECT

JUST LIKE I STATED IN THE BEGINING I KNEW THERE WOULD BE ALOT OF DIFFRENT OPINIONS ABOUT THE THREAD AND THERE HAS BEEN,IT WAS FOR THE BUYERS,NOT FOR ME!
BESTS BILL

SORRY FOR THE "CAPS"
 
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I will offer a comment since someone cited my work ;). There are many ways people "make" knives. We could debate about methods and terminology for years. As makers we have to be ethical about how our products are made and our RELATIONSHIP with our buyers. I buy bars and rods of steel and blocks of handle material to make into knives. Currently everything is done in my shop either by me or under my supervision. Other makers out source heat treat, water jet services etc. I see no problem as long as the products are ADVERTISED that way.

Taking a previous made blank and selling as "handmade" when it does not fit that definition is unethical and even may be illegal.
 
m. wohlwend said:
I will offer a comment since someone cited my work ;). There are many ways people "make" knives. We could debate about methods and terminology for years. As makers we have to be ethical about how our products are made and our RELATIONSHIP with our buyers. I buy bars and rods of steel and blocks of handle material to make into knives. Currently everything is done in my shop either by me or under my supervision. Other makers out source heat treat, water jet services etc. I see no problem as long as the products are ADVERTISED that way.

Taking a previous made blank and selling as "handmade" when it does not fit that definition is unethical and even may be illegal.
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Am I understanding you correctly here? It seems that you're saying that heat treat outsourcing and profiling method must be disclosed?

Come on, that's a bit far don't you think?

I mean who cares who or how a blade is profiled?

And frankly, I've dealt with some crummy by-the-maker heat treats in my day. Outsourcing it can be a good thing when done by the right services. But you make it sound like it's a form of cheating that must be disclosed.

Couldn't disagree more about both of these issues - they are a VERY far cry from taking a pre-made blank and doctoring them to look like it's your design.
 
Guys ,Lets lay this to rest,before it becomes a maker vs maker or buyer vs maker dispute thread,And i dont want that, I think enough has been said and we got to the bottom of this situation,We all have stated are thoughts and opinions,And i give credit to you Ray for being a man and posting in the thread, As stated before you have a talent put it to use,with your mind ,hands and machines! Good luck in the future
Bill
 
Los Angeles said:
Am I understanding you correctly here? It seems that you're saying that heat treat outsourcing and profiling method must be disclosed?

Come on, that's a bit far don't you think?

I mean who cares who or how a blade is profiled?

And frankly, I've dealt with some crummy by-the-maker heat treats in my day. Outsourcing it can be a good thing when done by the right services. But you make it sound like it's a form of cheating that must be disclosed.

Couldn't disagree more about both of these issues - they are a VERY far cry from taking a pre-made blank and doctoring them to look like it's your design.
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Yes, you are miss understanding what I am saying. :)

Makers should simply tell their customers how their knives are made. I clearly stated I have no problem with out sourcing.

My post was to deal with honesty between a maker and his customers. This is not a debate about how knives are made.
 
m. wohlwend said:
Yes, you are miss understanding what I am saying. :)

Makers should simply tell their customers how their knives are made. I clearly stated I have no problem with out sourcing.

My post was to deal with honesty between a maker and his customers. This is not a debate about how knives are made.
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Doh! My bad, good sir! Please accept my apologies for misunderstanding your position.

Alrighty, time to let this thread sink.

Kent
 
I'm not a knifemaker, embellisher or "re-handler" just a potential customer to all those who are but this thread has really made me think.

I've bought knives from probably 50% of the makers here on the forum. I bought them thinking that they were made by that knifemaker and didn’t question his specs. in his ad. I wonder now how many of the knives I bought are what they say they are. I suspect them all now.

This has made me re-think my hobby of collecting. I’m done with so called “custom handmade knives”. I’ll stick with mass produced production models. A sad day indeed.:(

Mark T.
 
empty5853, not all makers are this way. if you want a knife made by a maker, ask for work in progress pictures and if he is legit i'm sure he will be glad to oblige. what ray did was wrong and dishonest but dont let it sway you from dealing with the knifemakers on the forum.

there are a lot of honest makers out there and all you have to do is research the maker you are interested in. i take pictures of almost every knife i make from roughing out the blade to the finished knife.
 
empty5853 said:
I'm not a knifemaker, embellisher or "re-handler" just a potential customer to all those who are but this thread has really made me think.

I've bought knives from probably 50% of the makers here on the forum. I bought them thinking that they were made by that knifemaker and didn’t question his specs. in his ad. I wonder now how many of the knives I bought are what they say they are. I suspect them all now.

This has made me re-think my hobby of collecting. I’m done with so called “custom handmade knives”. I’ll stick with mass produced production models. A sad day indeed.:(

Mark T.
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It seems the Makers themselves can not agree, so in the future why don't you indeed question their specs, and if you don't agree with the way it's done, don't buy.
 
empty5853 said:
I'm not a knifemaker, embellisher or "re-handler" just a potential customer to all those who are but this thread has really made me think.

I've bought knives from probably 50% of the makers here on the forum. I bought them thinking that they were made by that knifemaker and didn’t question his specs. in his ad. I wonder now how many of the knives I bought are what they say they are. I suspect them all now.

This has made me re-think my hobby of collecting. I’m done with so called “custom handmade knives”. I’ll stick with mass produced production models. A sad day indeed.:(

Mark T.
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I don't see how anyone could fault you for reconsidering. This and some of the other chicanery that has surfaced from custom makers in GBU the past few months makes me wonder if there isn't more than just the occasional bad apple. So in place of fair disclosure, a buyer has to ask 20 questions about the source of the blank , the heat treat, who worked on it, progresss pictures, etc and all for a premium price? In many cases it's just not worth it. Better to stay with the established makers; which is a shame for any aspiring makers with no history to back them up.
 
empty5853 said:
I'm not a knifemaker, embellisher or "re-handler" just a potential customer to all those who are but this thread has really made me think.

I've bought knives from probably 50% of the makers here on the forum... snip... I suspect them all now... snip... I’m done with so called “custom handmade knives”. I’ll stick with mass produced production models. A sad day indeed.:(

Mark T.
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I don't know you Mark, so I can't make judgements on your character outside this thread... but this just blew me away... What a twisted way of thinking. You love knives enough to have bought from 50% of us, yet are willing to toss custom makers aside based on a few isolated cases of bad business? Some restaurant cooks spit in the food, do you never go to another? Many bottled water companies were proven to have used tap water, do you shun them all? Many of those carnival games have proven to be rigged, yet folks still play them and have fun doing so.

I would hope that your statements were said in haste.... if not... I question your choice in addiction.... lol.

MY BIGGEST BEEF WITH YOU.... is that I don't recall ever selling you a blade. Acquire one of my pieces.... then you can quit customs if you want.:p:thumbup:
 
Thanks to the original poster for sharing his findings on this one, it is indeed much appreciated by myself and no doubt other collectors as well.

As someone who got interested in collecting within the last year, this is a valuable lesson, albeit somewhat expensive I suppose since I purchased one of discussed/cussed "makers"' knives.

Nothing is learned from my perspective if you don't leverage an incident like this into useful knowledge, and I will certainly be far more critical of what I am buying in the future.

Lots of useful discussion in this thread by knife makers who are true to their craft and the knowledge that this has provided is greatly appreciated as well.

This incident won't dissuade me from continuing to collect knives, but I will be far better informed when making the next purchase! :D
 
Seriously though.... I do sympathise with those folks who are developing a distrust for custom makers. You are putting yourself out on a limb, for the most part, and expecting to get a truly handmade item. That is why we, as makers, jump all over these guys when they surface. We expose them as quickly as possible because it does eat away at everybody's reputation not just the scammers.

That is why it is important for new makers to establish themselves early on. The secret squirrel stuff doesn't fly in the knife world, anymore. You can't talk in riddles and hide your methods. You absolutely need to build reputation with your peers, first. If established knifemakers are accepting you as one of their own, it puts the customer at ease. It is also important for the aspiring collector to educate themselves, too. Unless you are collecting for looks only, you should familiarize yourself with materials and processes. If you are serious about custom knives, make friends with some makers. I have had friends ask me about other knifemaker's authenticity. I was happy to check them out. It isn't hard to see whether someone is legit. I don't have to agree with their methods to acknowledge them as a genuine maker.
 
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