Knives & Religion ... Don't Mix ??? -:(

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Para what sorta trouble are you causing now?? lol. To reply to a question that was not asked of me, I wouldnt really think much of it unless of course the swastika was accomanied by some pro 3rd Reich B.S., the user may of course be questioned for whatever they use by certain members.... blah blah blah, but thats life. People taking offence?? thats just too darned bad,
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Is it just me, or does anyone else think wiccans are horribly misunderstood??? lol
 
Para, you have got to be kidding me!!! Personal or not, wtf did you email Mark about his signature for? Good Lord (Good gosh instead of Lord, so as not to offend para) what makes you think you can dictate, or even suggest what peoples signature line can contain? You asked somebody above if you should also look the other way at nazi symbols. That is a pi$$ poor analogy and you know it. When somebody like you tries to justify your stance, you go to the extreme and say 'well, golly, if he can have a cross, what about a swastika (sp?)' Hard as it might be, common sense must prevail. His signature line does not promote hate, violence or anything else of a distasteful nature. A nazi symbol on the other hand is hateful, violent and offensive to humanity in general. However, your feelings that some maybe offended at his cross is about like those people that wont even say 'Merry Christmas' anymore as they like to say 'Happy Holidays' so as not to offend some busy-body group or another. If you dont share his belief then fine, but anything that does NOT promote or encourage wrong doing to another should be allowed to stand in his signature line. And, if your reply to me attempts any more comaprisons between a cross and a swastika then I will know that you are beyond comprehension of all common sense. Merry Christmas all. Happy Holidays to you Para
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Richard Todd - Digital knife photography
icq 61363141
My WebSite
Do your site a favor, get quality digital images!!!
 
Darn, I think Kelly is speaking in tongues again...

Remster, I don't see how this thread is discussing religion. It is about the use of religious imagery or quotations by forum members. Since the use of such signature lines is common here, and can easily get out of hand, I think it is an OK topic for discussion. I also dislike the political flags and slogans that so many use in their signature lines. It is of course a matter of judgement as to whether or not a forum members signature line will offend people.

Some forum members seem to feel that everyone here will think just like them, and will appreciate, or agree with the sentiments expressed in their signature lines. I think it is obvious that certain types of content is certain to offend someone. Folks should think very carefully about what they include in their signature, particularly political and religious content.

All I asked Mark, and all I ask anyone, is to please consider whether or not the content they post is appropriate in a Knife Forum. This applies to any post, as well as signature lines.

This topic stays open until Mark has a chance to read the replies tommorow. This thread is not About religion, it is about acceptable forum behavior.

Paracelsus, wondering how I offended remster
 
Senator,
Yes, He does!

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"You ought to weigh everything that's proposed by the government...against the loss of personal freedom." -- Ronald Reagan
<p>
".....and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36
 
I was going to stay out of this, but....

Hoping I'll not get flamed for this, but how could anybody get offended by any of the signature lines on this forum? I've seen quite a few different ones: religious, political, humorous, almost vulgar, extremely long and overbearing, etc., etc.

But offensive? No. If I don't agree with the sentiment expressed, I pass it by. Live and let live.

However, if a person's intent is to deliberately offend or inflame another, then they are clearly in the wrong.

With that in mind, I'm introducing my new (hopefully inoffensive) signature.

Dean

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I like William Henry fine knives.
 
Richard, I assure you that not everyone finds Christianity to be benign and harmless and I gave other examples of potentially offensive symbols besides the iron cross of the Nazis.

I emailed Mark because I thought his new sig line was too bold and too obvious for a Knife Discussion forum. I did Not ask him to change it. I only asked him to consider my thoughts on the matter. Simple really. He was free to ignore me.

It was Mark who decided to take drastic action and post about leaving the forums. And others who have decided to attack me about it. I guess I should never have responded to this thread. But because it was clear that Mark was leaving because of my email to him, I felt compelled to defend my thoughts in public.

I am not changing my mind on this issue. I stand by All of my statements. You can like that or not. This is my personal opinion, and is Not reflective of my role as moderator Except that being a moderator means trying to get people to 'be nice' and to stop the potential for disagreements between folks who should be friends.

Richard, what are the limits on symbols in signature lines? Would it be OK for me to use a very large Upside down cross in my signature line? Or do you think that might have some serious potential for causing problems?

This was a private matter. It should have remained private. Mark made it public. And my sense of honesty and fairness dictated that I should admit what I did. Now I have to defend my PRIVATE actions in public. So be it...

Paracelsus, wondering when the lynch mob of concerned and conscientious citizens will start screaming for my head...
 
Para,

Hope I didn't come off as criticizing you. Didn't mean to, was just expressing my opinion.

While I don't agree with you, I do support 100% your right to an opinion. I also empathize with having private correspondence publicly aired. And you are also enjoying the continuing delight of being a moderator and therefore in the "public eye". Because a lot of people respect you, your comments and opinions carry a lot of weight.

As Abe said, you can please some of the people all of the time....

Dean, hoping Paracelsus keeps moderating.
 
Para - please tell me that all of this fuss isn't simply about this:


<A HREF="http://markdouglas.freeyellow.com/TitaniumKnutt.html" TARGET=_blank>
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</A>


I know there has to be something that I'm missing here...
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Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection

Member NCCKG , SCAK, and AKTI

Deo Vindice
 
I think one thing is NOT debatable:
This is Mike's private forum, designated for knife discussion, so the limits of free speech entirely up to him and the moderators.


The only thing that seems to be debatable here is whether one member of the forum can privately send another a note, asking them to think about whether their language may be offensive to others. I don't recall reading that Para was offended, only that he thought others might be. Is this just polite community behavior? Or should Para have assumed that others are as openminded as he is?

(as to whether Christianity is offensive, I seem to recall several passages in the New Testament itself clearly acknowledging that others will find it offensive; see John 15 and 1 Cor 1:23
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)
 
The real question is why some people are offended by some topics. Even humor is subjective. In Madison, if you say anything racial, you must be a bigot. Yet, my black friends and I take perverse pleasure in hurling epithets at each other to view the reaction of others. (One friend, Larry, called me 'dago' for several months because he heard it used in a sentence. When he found out what it meant to Sicilians, he was horrified.) I wouldn't care if we had a no-holds-barred conversation about religion--I enjoy a good debate. But when I hear our juvenile knuts just string a line of invectives together for shock value, I'm offended because it's crass. To that end, I'm being selective and only viewing knife related topics. Heck, I can pick a fight with the liberals at the gym. I go to the forums to learn and have a good time.--OKG
 
"He never talks religion, always starts a fight."--Ted the Mechanic, Deep Purple

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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me.
 
My personal opinion... well, wait... FIRST OFF! What Kelly (Senator) said!

OK, second, my personal opinion... Paracelsus, maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't have said anything. While you stated in your email to Mark, and have reiterated here several times, you made it clear that you were stating your personal opinion regarding the crosses. But, by the fact that you stated it might offend others here (correct me if I'm wrong here), you seem to have been acting somewhat in the capacity of your status as moderator. Therefore, to me, that leans toward setting a precedent around here against Christian symbols. Consider some of the other bandwidth-eating signature lines around here. In fact, I think there are one or two in this thread (can't remember for sure, but I thought I saw a waving flag). I would opine that there may be readers of the forums that might be offended by a waving USMC flag. I don't hear of any urges to consider that, though. And before anyone says anything, I have the utmost respect with the Marines I work with, and hurt inside every time I hear that one has fallen (like the recent V-22 mishap).

Anyway, I personally am a Christian, even though I don't mention it in my sig line. But, I would never as a person urge someone who posted a Nazi Iron Eagle Cross (?) as a sig line to consider the feelings of others on the forum. Neither an upside-down cross, a Buddha, or otherwise. If someone or several members of the forum are offended, they will let the person know pretty quickly. I saw it happen when someone asked about a KKK etched Case knife. Boy howdy!!!

I respect you Paracelsus, and really enjoyed meeting you at Timonium, but I feel that in this case a Christian has been singled out purely because of his beliefs (Belay that. Not because of <u>his</u> beliefs, but it appears it is another case of the current trend to tolerate all things except Christianity). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but please consider first the actions you took, and the way it appears. That's all I've got to go by. Well, that and what's been said here. This is a forum where the common bond between all of us is our appreciation for sharp edges and points. There is in fact, in my opinion, room for Muslims, Hindu (Hindi?), Christian, Buddhists (forgive my spelling, guys), and Wiccans. If someone wants to put a symbol of their religion in their sig line, I feel they should be able to, freely. If it becomes a problem with band-width, then that's a different story entirely. I don't feel that they should launch off on an exposition of their religion in the general forum, and if someone does, then I understand full moderation. So far, I have never seen someone do that, including Mark.

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iktomi

[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 12-12-2000).]
 
Yes Kelly, my email to Mark was about That.

Thank-you Summerland. I was indeed Not offended personally. But the use of Bold signatures is becoming increasingly prevalent recently. I only asked Mark to think about the potential impact it may have. My examples may have been too extreme. But I am sure there are many religious symbols that could be used by forumites that would offend some of the Christians on this board.

Saying Happy Holidays in a public place IS better than saying Merry Christmas BECAUSE not everyone is celebrating Christmas. This time of year has many meanings to many people. I say Merry Christmas to my family. I say Happy Holidays to people on the forums and at work Because I respect the right of Jews, and Muslims, and many others to enjoy the season for their own reasons without having my beliefs or traditions forced on them.

Another example might be the common usage of the Bush/Cheney logo in sig lines. It seems that a majority of forumites supported Bush. So much so, that in the political forum, folks were being personally attacked for saying they voted for Gore. I find that sort of behavior unfortunate. I KNOW that some people are afraid to express their opinion about the political mess the country is in because if they say anything that is not aligned with the Republicans, they WILL be personally attacked.

This forum is supposed to about knife discussion. It is not a place to express your religious beliefs, or your political beliefs. Of course, everything in moderation can be well tolerated.

A well known long time forum member signs his posts with the rather innocuous phrase 'Walk in the Light'. To him this means Go with God. It does not offend me, and is not distracting, or obviously offensive in any way. But I have seen him attacked for the use of this phrase of Several occasions. I support his right to use his signature line. He knows that it might get a negative reaction. Mark's crosses have an even greater potential to cause trouble for him, and for the forums as a whole.

There was a long, contentious thread about signature lines about a year ago. I actually would prefer that this feature was turned off, or that folks would not use it for extensive Biblical quotations or political statements. But the signature line also serves very good purposes. I love the quotations from James Mattis that several people use. I like the links to web sites that makers and dealers include in their signature lines. But, I feel that political or religious statements in signature lines are at best unecessary, and are often potentially divisive and inflammatory.

Paracelsus, growing weary of this 'arguement'
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rockspyder:
Paracelsus, maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't have said anything.</font>
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No Kidding!
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I wrote a person a private email, not about his beliefs, but what I felt was the inappropriateness of his large thumbnail image. It is easy to ignore short text, Mark's crosses are impossible to ignore. You can not help but notice them. But that's the whole idea I think. Mark wants EVERYONE to know that he is a Christian. And yes, that does offend me a little. His religious beliefs do not bother me. His belief that it is OK to rub everyone's nose in his beliefs does indeed bother me. I would have done the same thing if any forum member had started using a thumbnail image which expressed Any religious or political beliefs. That this example involves a Christian is irrelevant (to me).

I am sorry that more people do not seem to understand where I am coming from. I am NOT attacking Christianity. I am attacking Any strong statement of belief that has the potential to cause problems here in the forums.

This was supposed to be a private communication. I am sorry I sent the email. And I am sorry I admitted sending it so that folks could understand why Mark was so upset. It has caused me a great deal of needless stress today. Mark sent me an email in which he makes it Very clear that he did not want to listen to or calmly try to understand what I was saying. It seems that he was not alone.

Paracelsus, saddened by arguing with my friends about something that seems so obvious (at least to me)
 
about like those people that wont even say 'Merry Christmas' anymore

Thnaks, but when people say Merry Christmas to me, I say Happy Holidays or Happy New Year to them, because Happy Hanukkah confuses some of them ... it isn't always about offending someone, because I'm not offended by anyone wishing me well, but a big, cheery religious invitation is only OK if you know enough to drop it when I smile and walk away.

Personally, I couldn't care less who uses what for a signature, and I thought those crosses were nicely done, I just don't know why there were two. Post a swastika if you like, I won't complain ... but I might not pay any more attention to you after that.

I hope TitaniumKnutt sticks around. Hey, TitaniumKnutt! Come back! That wasn't even the most obvious religious stuff around here! Yeah, Paracelsus, you should stick around, too. Good grief ...
 
Buncha religious bastids!
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Look guys, I can see both sides of this... In my experience, religion and religious topics on any forum are dangerous grounds on which to tread; you won't find another subject (except maybe politics) where people are rabidly devoted to their personal beliefs. That's why, when at all possible, we prefer that religion be seperated from the knife discussions here.

Let me make this clear, right now. BladeForums.com as a whole has no problem with any member's religious preferences or creed. You are free to worship how you choose, where you choose, etc. We would just ask that you be mindful of the religious practices and tenents of other forum members, and as such, show them the respect that you would like to have.

In other words, Do onto others as you would have done onto you.

So, with that in mind, let's keep things positive - and keep our beliefs as *our* beliefs, and show restraint in all things. Ok? No one is saying you cannot have an inspirational message in your signature, but let's make sure that we all use some self moderation so that the BladeForums.com moderators don't have to step in.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
I'll answer Mark's first statement. I have heard that religion, or more specifically to Mark, the Bible, does support sword (knife) carry. For those interested Jesus says in Luke 22:36 says, "if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." There are other references as well.

To Paracelsus: If you single out those who put Scripture verses in their signature, I'm sure that you must be filling your day guiding many forumites who include off-color, political, or possibly otherwise offensive signatures that may be offensive to other forumites. With a critical eye, I could find something offensive with many signatures (sales pitches, flags, symbols, politics, sayings, off-color website links, etc.). Isn't the signature a place for a personal expression? If you "guided" Mark to consider removing Scripture references from his signature you either unfairly have singled him/religion out, or you have not addressed all offensive signatures. You have yet to email me on mine which could be considered by some as an offensive sales pitch for our company.

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Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com


[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 12-12-2000).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ron@SOG:

To Paracelsus: If you single out those who put Scripture verses in their signature, I'm sure that you must be filling your day guiding many forumites who include off-color, political, or possibly otherwise offensive signatures that may be offensive to other forumites. With a critical eye, I could find something offensive with many signatures (sales pitches, flags, symbols, politics, sayings, off-color website links, etc.). Isn't the signature a place for a personal expression? If you "guided" Mark to consider removing Scripture references from his signature you either unfairly have singled him/religion out, or you have not addressed all offensive signatures. You have yet to email me on mine which could be considered by some as an offensive sales pitch for our company.
</font>
Click to expand...

I did not GUIDE Mark. I asked him to THINK about his Picture. It was Not text. These are very different things.

I wrote one person a personal email expressing my thoughts about his Picture. I was not nasty. I did not tell him to Do anything. In fact, I invited him to participate on a Early Christian theology forum which he might have found enjoyable. I hang out there sometimes. Surprise, Surprise.

And yes, I have certainly Not addressed all offensive signatures. If you read my posts carefully, you will see that I addressed the issue about flags, and political statements as well as scriptural references.

I guess my real concern is with Pictures in signature lines. Not because I am personally offended. But I worry about their potential for creating schism, and anger in Other folks. I have seen it happen many times on the forum.

For this reason I dislike flags, and rows of smiley faces, and Mark's crosses in signature lines, just to name a few. Text is easy to ignore. Pictures are not. They distract from my reading experience and intrude unecessarily. And they are always Off Topic, rarely actually express anything about the person. That is whay I prefer to sign my posts differently every time. That allows me to express myself. Not hit someone in the head with a hammer.

How about if I try to make my point this way: I look around the web for all sorts of religious pictures or politically offensive pictures and make thumbnails of them and use them in my signature line. How about putting a bleeding Jesus on the cross suffering in agony. Is that horrific image going to be OK? How about an image of GW Bush burning at the stake?

Do you get it Yet?

Words can be offensive enough. Images are even more powerful.

I had not noticed that your sig line was offensive, but if you say so, I'll take your word for it and never click on the link. Thanks for baiting me, and for warning me.
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Paracelsus, trying to find some humor in all of this...

 
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