Large Regular Sebenza Review

Cliff Stamp said:
They are not the same, but both are related to stresses seen in use and both both void the warrenty of the Sebenza,
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I've never heard of CRK saying that spine wacking voids the warranty. Do you have any proof of this?
 
Scott Dog said:
...how many flicks did it take?
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One because then the warrenty is voided. Any claims of performance from users are irrelevant because the manufacturer has specifically stated that they are not supported.

For example :

I come out with a new knife, I claim it is sharper, cuts better, is stronger and more ergonomic than the Senenza. I then have it tested which shows that indeed all of the claims are true.

A user then asks can he duplicate those tests to check them out for himself. I reply that any testing of that nature is considered abusive and voids the warrenty of the knife.

Would any sensible individual then take any of the claims made about such a product seriously - of course not becuase they are *not* supported by the manufacturer.

-Cliff
 
Wow. Wether or not the mfg. supports an action doesn't have any effect on the ability of the product to perform that action.

I work in a bike shop and we sell many bikes in the $2000-$3000 range to people who are going to go race them, take them off road and do drop-offs, jumps, etc. All of this is specifically banned in the bikes warranty and not just in the bikes we sell but in almost all bikes across the board. That certainly doesn't mean that the bikes can't take it and it doesn't even mean that the company won't take care of many issues under warranty. What it does is give them the option to withhold warranty service if they determine the item has been abused.

Would it be nice if CRK had a warrany like say Strider? Sure, that would be great. Do I really care that much? Not really!!! I think CRK could easily have a warranty policy like that. I think they get very, very few knives back every year that they refuse to offer warranty service too. Of course, offering that sort of protection isn't free and would probably raise the prices a little. (maybe that is why a Strider folder is a little more expensive then a Sebenza) Personally, I would rather skip that little extra warranty protection and have the exact same knife for a cheaper price. I don't flick any of my knives, never saw the reason too. I have very little doubt that the Sebenza can take a lot of abuse before failure and I don't think I'll ever have to find out how much that is.
 
Flicking is a *lot* less stressful and it voids it. Spine whacking can actually break folders as the energy is many times higher than flicking. I just did a search on Reeves forum, no concrete statement from him, though it was called abusive by a number of users and dealers, with no contradiction from Reeve.

If he actually supports it, it would be interesting considering the stance on flicking, and what spine whacks means in a general sense, see for example Steve Harvey's spine whacks. But, if he does actually come out and support the knife for such use then obviously its then not inferior in that regard and is now on an equal status with all the rest of them that do.

Which is the point being missed. When all knife makers called these things abusive it was one thing, now that there are knives built specifically to handle them it is different. And performance only counts if it is supported, anything else is just hype by defination.

-Cliff
 
First off, most of the knives we discuss are high quality, with overall minor differences between the $30 specials and the $400 production knives. At these levels, I strongly disagree that warranties have anything to do with the quality of the product. Warranties have to do with marketing in almost all cases when it comes to a corporation and knives are no different. No one is going to convince me that a Hyundia with a 100,000 mile 10 year warranty is a better built automobile than a Mercedes-Benz with a 50,000/4 year warranty. If company A says that they will cover anything and replace said knife, they are hoping that this will draw more customers and build them a reputation for good customer service, but it doesn’t mean their knife is any better or worse than anyone else’s. ANY knife can be destroyed, just because I can get a free one if I destroy it doesn’t make it a better design, better quality or better built. Let me ask you, if you are on a trek in the North woods for three weeks and your “We’ll fix it no matter what” warranty knife fails, what good does their warranty do you. Is the company going to fly a Cessna up there and drop you a knife by parachute? NO. In my mind the warranty is about number 5 on the list of requirements, behind ergonomics, design, materials and fit and finish. I started this discussion, because although I am not fond of the handle design of the Sebenza for comforts sake, I find all the discussion about it being inferior because of flicking ridiculous. If you look at the design, materials, clearances and final product from CRK, I see no objective evidence that it is an inferior knife. Until someone takes about 20 Sebenza’s and 20 each of several other knives and tests them to failure, and shows empirically that the Sebenza is inferior you have no ground to stand on. Warranty be damned.

Richard
 
Well said Richard. Cliff you are wrong about flicking voiding the warranty. In fact I believe in the Reeve forum FAQ thread where it describes how to re-assemble the Seb after cleaning they recommend that you flick the knife open the first time in order to set the blade. So one flick after each reassembly keeps you within the warranty. This issue has been beat to death. I have a copy here of the warranty card that comes with the knife and it doesn't specifically mention that flicking voids the warranty. Warranties are highly over rated. Many companies like to toot their fantastic warranties but will pull every trick in the book to avoid paying a warranty claim. They may take care of Cliff because they know that his opinion will influence people to buy their product, but if some smuck like me needs warranty service they may not be so forthcoming. More to the point, I have bought a couple of Omegas on the internet on the grey market (which come without a manufacturer's warranty) and they have served me well. Their reputation as a high quality time piece makes a warranty irrelevant. I have always been more than satisfied with the quality of my Sebenzas and feel that I have been treated fairly by CRK and that means more to me than Cliff's inferiority claim.
 
It's a pretty simple concept here. CRK builds a great knife with a great warranty. The warranty does not state that it covers intentional abuse, as does, say, Busse. Unless intentional abuse is stated as being covered, any reasonable person would not think that it would be. Chris has indicated that flicking the knife open is not good for it, leads to problems, constitutes intentional abuse and it won't be covered by the warranty. A Sebenza is a fine knife and should be treated as such. "Look after it" as CRK says to do and it will "look after you". For a lifetime. That's their warranty. End of story.

Now, why don't we talk about the fact that the vast majority of custom knives out there, priced WAY above Sebenza prices, aren't designed as well, aren't built as well and don't hold up as well. Blades that don't center, that wobble, poor lockups, detents that don't work properly, pocket clips that don't position the knife very well, pivot screws issues, etc.......If you've run the gamut like I have, you realize that the Sebenza's a bargain. I have a flat ground, large, BG-42 and love it.
 
I bought a small left hand classic used off another forum. When I received it the lockup didn't seem right to me, so after doing a spine wack test it failed. I called and talked with the shop foreman at CRK who is over Sebenza production and explained my problem with the knife . That it would close when the spine of the blade was tapped on a hard surface. I was told to return it and they would repair it. He was told I bought the knife used and had no way of knowing if the original owner had worked on the knife causing the problem. I was called by the shop foreman when he received the knife and was told it would be repaired at no charge. I asked if they would install double thumb lugs while it was in the shop. When I received the knife back I got a letter explaining the repair and telling me that a new blade was installed because mine was scratched while installing the double thumb lugs. So as not to hold my knife any longer a new blade was fitted instead of refinishing mine. The knife was completely refinished with a new blade installed and I was only charged for the double thumbstuds. So regarding CRK's warranty I think it's excellent . It would appear some people have other issues that have nothing to do with knives or warranty. Larry
 
I received my first sebenza four days ago. It was supposed to be put away for Christmas but my wife relented and let my have it immediately. It is a large regular (I'm very lucky, I also have a small ironwood classic already wrapped for Christmas). When I first received the sebenza I wasn't quite sure why people raved about it. It wasn't quite as easy to open as my Ritter Grip, it definitely was harder to close, it wasn't ambidextrous, it's heavier than my military, I have heard others on the bladeforums even describe its appearance as somewhat ugly and in part I had to agree.

But - - - after playing with it and using it for four days, my opinion has changed. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's the attention to fine detail. Maybe it's the solid locking up when opened. It just seems to do everything right. Now, I even describe its plain appearance as functional elegance. Yesterday I had my name engraved on it. I ain't ever going to let this one go. To be honest, I don't give two *#-^# about the warranty, its quality is obvious. :)

Maybe I will change my mind after using it for a year, but I don't think so.
 
Hey Cliff. I enjoy reading your stuff and appreciate the time and energy you put in. I need clarification about a point you make:

The impats seen from flipping are very low, even if done very hard, the impact is just due to the kinetic energy of the blade, which is low because the blade doesn't weigh very much. Just consider flicking the blade open hitting someone with the spine, it isn't a blow that would leave you seriously injured.
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I would agree that the actual forces may not be massive, but flicking a blade open and hitting someone is a strange analogy. The stop pin would take the entire force of the swinging blade over a very small surface area. Swinging a blade to hit someone would distribute the force over the length of the spine. Much different. Also, the stop pin is a very hard structure - not like a body part that you could hit with the spine, cusioning the blow (an arm or leg for example).

If you want to make this analogy, perhaps we should concentrate all of the forces over a similar amount of surface area and into something harder - like a tooth for example. Now is there anybody here that would like a chunck of steel to exert striking forces on their tooth? Anybody?...Bueller...
:)
 
Scott Dog said:
Cliff:
I'd like to hear about specific cases where Sebenzas have been flicked to death and how many flicks did it take?
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I cant be the only one who didnt just remember that old commercial for Tootsie Pops with the Owl wondering how many licks it takes to reach the center, one, two, three! Three. :)

You know, this thing is ridiculous, Chris is clearly a perfectionist, and maybe a little stubborn, which is how and why his knives are so consistantly well made, he obviously learned at one point in his career that flicking wasnt good for knives, believes it to be true, as many others do as well, and will not change his mind on it, I doubt this has anything to do with a Sebenza not handling flicking as well as other knives, he just believes something and is sticking to his belief, some would call that honesty and integrity.

Flicking open a knife simply cannot be good in the longrun, it CAN'T be. You have repeated metal to metal impacts, the blade, stop pin, or both will without a doubt, become slightly deformed over time, and I don't care who made the knife. As this happens, the lock will move towards the right side, as the blade and/or pin deform. Chris believes, correctly, this is easily avoided by simply opening the knife as it was designed to be opened, with a thumbstud, hmmmm, tricky isn't it? Yes, clearly Chris is a deceptive, unscrupulous bastard, producing a shoddy product, as Brownshoe continually, with his incredible insight, brings to our attention, and obviously Sebenzas arent worth the $340 they sell for, even if they exhibit a level of F&F, quality and precision I still havent found on knives costing 2-10 times as much, from many of the top rated custom makers. Yes, Chris Reeve deserves your scorn, he's out to get us all. The nerve of this man, making a knife of near miraculous quality for a reasonable price that is obviously not more than it should be, as he is still in business, and arguably at the top of the production heap. Let's kill him.

You know what, I just developed a new litmus test for my own personal use, it goes like this: "Any person who says the Sebenza is overpriced, and/or not deserving of the hype surrounding it, is an idiot" Or, maybe I'll make that a flicking idiot...
 
I like the argument in this thread that equates warranty coverage and repair costs to quality. In fact I like it so much I am going to apply it to my car.

If I blow the head gasket in my KIA it will cost about $50 to replace. If I blew the head gasket in my friends S-class mercedes it would cost, well it would cost a whole lot more than $50 to fix.

Ergo, my Kia is a better car than my friend's Mercedes.

My Kia comes with a 100,000 mile warranty. My friends Mercedes doesnt.

Ergo my Kia is STILL a better car than my friend's Mercedes.

Awesom, I'm going to cruise down to the college and pick up some hot young ladies in my SUPERIOR Kia. Take THAT Mercedes.
 
Megalobyte said:
You know what, I just developed a new litmus test for my own personal use, it goes like this: "Any person who says the Sebenza is overpriced, and/or not deserving of the hype surrounding it, is an idiot" Or, maybe I'll make that a flicking idiot...
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:D Thank you! :D
 
kbog said:
Now is there anybody here that would like a chunck of steel to exert striking forces on their tooth?
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One would hope the stop pin isn't as fragile as the tips of your teeth, which while quite hard (~33 HRC) can be easily fractured upon impact.

The point made in the above contrast was to allow somone to get a benchmark for the actual energy supplied and thus determine that since it is just due to the blades inertia its small. Yes it is applied to the stop pin and thus care has to be taken in manufacturing to avoid its flattening, see posts by makers who build knives to take such use.

As well, again, these types of impacts, flipping and such, are of much smaller stress than various torques, impacts, dynamic considerations in use. And again, the critical point is that these kinds of impacts are *NOT* seen as abusive by other makers and thus the Sebenza is directly inferior in that regard.

It doesn't matter if you don't want that class of performance, someone else might. It is no different than if you want tip up vs down, if a knife doesn't offer the versatility it is inferior to one that does - in that respect.

-Cliff
 
To me its pretty simple. If flicking will damage a knife that's supposed to be designed for hard use...it's not designed for hard use. There's too many other knives out their that can take that kind of use and beg for more.

If a manufacturer will claim he can tell if a knife has been flicked just by inspection, and then deny a warranty claim, it's a game. A game where the manufacturer has a convenient back door.

When the manufacturer never defends the above two points, no matter how many times its discussed on these forums, then he's either stupid...or playing the game. CRK ain't stupid and the various articles about the company indicate they are consumate game players.

Spend your money. One thing for sure, if you want knife cutting ability for your dollar, then buying a sebenza proves you're an idiot who wants a status toy...just not a flicking idiot. :)
 
brownshoe said:
.... then he's either stupid...or playing the game. CRK ain't stupid and the various articles about the company indicate they are consumate game players.

Spend your money. One thing for sure, if you want knife cutting ability for your dollar, then buying a sebenza proves you're an idiot who wants a status toy...just not a flicking idiot. :)
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WHOOP, WHOOP, Flaming troll detector on HIGH!

Come on bs (I can call yoy that can't I ? short for "brownshoe") "an idiot who wants a status toy" --- I suppose you say the same of the Rolex owners and Porsche drivers. I agree with the previous poster. KIA has a MUCH better warranty than Mercedes. Doesn't mean much.

And a grey **** like the Sebenza isn't much of a status toy except in a VERY small universe.

I own three of them. ;)
 
No trolling here. Kept my mouth shut on this thread for many days until someone calls me an idiot...sorry, I am a "flicking idiot" :)

WHen is flicking a good method to open your knife? For reverse grip or when you're wearing gloves. Went out with the pitbull last night and a CRKT Pesh Kabz...made for flicking and it'll keep on ticking. It was cold, and I could open the blade with the stud and flick it with the kick. However, it was also real nice to be able to just flick it open into either forward or reverse grip...can't do that with the grey ****, but my $30 CRKT is built to take it.
 
It really comes down to this:

Brownshoe and Cliff want their knives to be able to withstand flicking, that is among the most important things. Since B&C thinks flicking is important, the sebenza isn't worth it.

The rest of us, really don't think flicking is that important, and we would rather have pivot bushings, nice F&F, etc. To us, this issue over flicking is making and mountain our of a molehill, and/or we question their assumption that flicking is important.

It's perfectly reasonable to make descisions, like if a sebenza is worth it, based on your needs and wants. I don't personally agree with B&C over flicking, but regardless, we have to respect thier choice.
 
I've always thought of the Sebenza as a tool. If want to flick, buy a toy to play with.
 
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