Large Regular Sebenza Review

I don't want knife to be able to be flicked upon for that use specifically, though I could see possibilities depending on the weather and so on which could make digit manipulation difficult but some gross movement like flicking still possible.

My point of view is that :

a) since it is possible to do, and even $30 knives can handle it, it isn't unreasonable to expect a knife which costs 10x as much to have that ability, and if it doesn't its inferior design/materials

b) since it is such a low stress impact, if it is a problem so will be a whole other host of uses

If you just want a light duty folder, there are scads which will out cut a Sebenza all day long. The only reason to pay that much and get so much metal on a folder is for heavy use, and you can't claim heavy use if flicking is a problem.

If you still don't get this consider if the following was an abuse clause :

the Sebenza's warrenty is voided if you butter a piece of bread.

Now personally I have never buttered a piece of bread with a folder that I recall, and quite frankly it isn't something that I look for in a folding knife. However if a manufacturer actually called it abusive I would pass on that knife for obvious reasons. No because of that action specifically but what it says about the knife in general.

-Cliff
 
Ginsu knives come with a lifetime warrantee. If you break or dull their knife, they'll replace the knife ABSOLUTELY FREE for as long as you live. ;)

Better than CRK, Strider, Kia & Mercedes. :rolleyes:

Surely you guys are intelligent enough to realize that you ALWAYS pay for the warrantee! Maybe it's up front, maybe it's in the shipping & handling, maybe it's in the "back door" mentioned earlier. Maybe it's in the fine print (original owner, receipt required, etc.).

IMO, those that purchase by warrantee alone are just ignorant. Not stupid, not idiots, just ignorant to think that you can really get more than you pay for.

Also, there's flicking and there's flicking. There's spine tapping and spine beating.

I can break ANY knife in 20 seconds. I can do it over 500 times a day. I DARE any knife company to give me an unconditional lifetime warrantee!

There's a lot of Bullship going around about warrantees.

Know your company.

sal
 
Thanks, Sal!

You know there's people here who aren't talking about warrantees when they say warrantee, they're talking about a personal agenda. You don't need a thick hide to deal with it, but a bowl of popcorn would be nice about now. :D
 
Sal is making a good point.

Take gun manufacturers, for example. Ruger does not have any explicit warranty on their guns. In practice, however, they are known to back up their (very robust) products for a lifetime. Taurus, on the other hand, has a lifetime warranty, which many people end up needing to use, and also end up dissatisfied with the results.

More important than the warranty is the company's ethic when it comes to building robust products and standing behind them.
 
Good point bls.

Warranties are not worth the paper they're written on if overall integrity is not in those that wrote the warranties, especially when it comes to this industry. I would much rather deal with a company that had top-notch customer service, actually cared about EACH individual customer, and had a "limited warranty" than a company that sells BS with lifetime unconditional warranties.

Jeff
 
Sal Glesser said:
IMO, those that purchase by warrantee alone are just ignorant.
Click to expand...
Anyone who buys by any one criteria alone is ignorant by defination of the word. Similar to anyone who ignores the warrenty is ignorant by the same defination.

I can break ANY knife in 20 seconds.
Click to expand...
By flicking it open with your hand as being described here - that I would like to see. Even assisted spine whacks such as Steve Harvey does can't damage some knives, still talking about folders.

Its not simply a matter of warrenty its also the nature of describing it as abusive. Which by defination means the knife is not made to handle such use. So if you need a class of use and its abusive to one knife and not to another it isn't a huge leap of logic which one to pick.

Nor is it a huge jump to note which one is superior in that regard.

That being said, this isn't a major issue for me personally in regards to the Sebenza, there are a whole host of other reasons why I would carry other folders having used a Sebenza. Things like ergonomics, lock security/jamming, cutting ability, versatility, etc. .. The abuse label on spine whacks, flicking is in there as well of course.

-Cliff
 
Hi Cliff

I can break ANY knife in 20 seconds. I can do it over 500 times a day. I DARE any knife company to give me an unconditional lifetime warrantee!

I was referring to warrantees, not flicking. I use a very sophisicated machine to break them. takes about 20 second. 45 seconds to load. "unconditional warrantees" was by "bitch". I can also tell you exactly how much force it took to break it. ;)

Knife folks been flickin' Spyderco's for for 24 years.

saql
 
So, Mr. Glesser indicates anyone is free to flick their Spydercos.

On another thread, Darrell Ralph and Kit Carson said you can flick any of their production knives.

At the NRA national, the Benchmade team was flicking their Axis knives, demonstrating their easy opening.

The point isn't so much the reeve's warranty, but the corporate statement that flicking will harm a sebenza. Hard to believe the so-called pinnacle of production knives can't take the same treatment as many other brands.
 
I will tread where I usually don't. After reading all the posts, my response is who cares. I had a Sebenza, I flicked it. I did not like it, I sold it. Personally, I will use a knife the way I choose, regardless of the warrenty.

I think this discussion has reached the point of esoteric nonsense. But, on the other hand, it is probably me, because I just want the damn knife to be fun and to cut when I need it to.
 
OK, maybe I went too far in indirectly saying anybody here is an idiot, but, this thread, and certain member's constant bashing and nitpicking of what is without a doubt, one of the finest made, highest quality production knives in existance, well, it gets me irritated.

You may not like the knife for any number of reasons, ergonomics, no choice as to clip orientation, limited blade choices, or even the warrantee, but, I defy anybody to say the Sebenza isn't one of the highest quality production knives made today, and by that, I mean extremely well made, with exceptional F&F, and unusual knife to knife consistancy, you may not like it for personal reasons, but you cannot in good conscience say it is not an exceptionally well made knife.

Now, about the warrantee and flicking, just because any number of companies don't prohibit it and just because CRK does, does not mean that their knives can handle it, while CR knives can't, all it says to me is, some companies don't mind that their knives will become slightly out of whack and tune over time by flicking and don't mind fixing any problems that result, and CR does mind, why? As I said, I think its his perogative as the maker to specify what he feels is the correct use of his knife and he believes, as do I and lots of folks, constant flicking WILL over time do something undesirable to the knife. He believes this, he has a logical basis to believe it, and he sticks to his belief, especially since he designed the knife to be opened with a thumbstud.

A Sebenza will handle flicking as well or better than any other knife, a buddy of mine is a deputy sheriff here in S. FLorida and he owns a ton of Sebenzas, and has flicked the CRAP out of them, with NO problems! However CR believes it is not the right way to open his knife, and he makes that clear with the warrantee, it's as simple as that and it's his belief and choice to make, if you disagree with him, buy a $50 CRKT and have a ball flicking, just don't cry to me when the poorly executed liner lock fails and you lose several fingers, I won't shed a tear for you, does the CRKT warrantee cover lost fingers? If a major criteria for your purchasing a knife is to flick it open repeatedly with impunity, well, first, I feel sorry for you that you have such low expectations and needs in a knife, but, if flicking is really that crucial then yes, don't buy a knife who's maker disagrees with flicking and has a warrantee that reflects this, but to suggest the Sebenza will not handle flicking as well as other knives because of the warrantee, well, then you are not being objective and clearly have an axe to grind here. Personally, I liken flicking knives open to shooting handguns sideways, "Gangsta" style... I can't imagine repeatedly flicking a really nice knife open, I'd feel silly doing it, and I KNOW, in my heart, it's not good for the knife in the longrun, but that's just me... I repeat, the fact that some companies allow it does NOT mean it is not harming the knife!!! Nor does the fact that CR doesn't allow it mean his knives can't handle it as well as knives by companies that do allow it, to say so is a fallacious argument.

Whether the Sebenza can handle flicking as well as other knives, has nothing to do with whether CR disagress with flicking, and has a warrantee that reflects this, while other companies have a different approach and different warrantee. The warrantee does not change the properties of the steels of the blades and stop pins on either knife, nor does a piece of paper and what is written on it suspend the laws of physics, does it?

I know this is not the most clever analagy, but it's getting late, and I'm tired, so... if you had 2 guys who were each thought to be very tough men, bodybuilders, and one, was known for offering that anybody can punch him as hard as they can in the face, and, presumably, because he is so tough, he can handle it, the other guy, just as tough, for some odd reason, doesn't want to be punched in the face and doesn't allow it, does this necessarily mean the guy who allows it is the tougher man, or simply that he doesnt mind getting punched, whether either can handle it is not dependant on whether either one wants or doesn't want to be punched, that's a choice they each make for personal reasons.
 
CR or any other company is free to offer any type warranty they want, and the customer is free to choose to purchase it or not - it's called Capitalism. Obviously CR does not have a problem with needing customers or problems with defective knives. I think his product pretty much speaks for itself, regardless of a warranty card.

Just to relate a little story...I have a Toyota truck. Right after the warranty went out on it the engine developed a tapping sound when it was cold. I took it to the Toyota service center and left it. I called to check on it about a week later and the service manager told me "Oh, we've got a new engine coming in for it." I immediatley told him that I did not want to pay for a new engine. He said "no charge. Toyota takes cares of their customers." Now, I don't know if this was a regional thing or par for the course with Toyota but they didn't have to do this.

I think a lot of knife companies have great customer service and will fix things outside the warranty many times. At least that's the service I have received over the years. Most of them have a warranty as an insurance policy for the people who intentionally destroy their product by chopping D9 Caterpillar tracks off the rollers, then want it replaced or repaired.

Jeff
 
It has come to this.

Now I have to settle all discussions.

It is time for.........

The Flick-a-thon of 2005

Yes, I will, with my vast array of mechanical devices build (for free) a machine that will flick open and then close several production folders. We'll assume that a normal knife guy opens his knife say 20 times a day, 52 weeks a year and can somehow manage not to lose it or wear the blade down in less than 20 years. Now that works out to..20 times square root of pi, carry the 9.... 20,800 flicks. I think my machine can be designed to cycle through a flick open and close in 5-10 seconds, say 10 to be conservative.

Hmmm, e to the x, partial derivative ...arctangent ^#$#&, thats almost 2.5 days of continuos flicking with my machine.

Now, if someone out there will just send me a brand new Sebenza (preferably the large one with a unique graphic...) and a series of new custom folders (I am suggesting Johnny Stout, Warren Osborne, Pease, Minnick, and oh yeah, Johan Gustafsson) along with some new production folders I will get to work on it. I'll write it up in a long discussion replete with nice images on a special website....

I'd write more, but www.flick.com , www/flickit.com and www.flick-it.com are all taken.... I have to go and try and get www.flickitgood.com before someone takes that one too!

Your humble servant (albeit not trying to take Cliff's job but I studied a little physics in my time and got me a Ph.D. in engineering along the way so maybe we can both do some knife testing).

Now for grins I think you want to make sure those customs are nice Damascus steels. Not sure, but I'd hate to have something les than the best for these vital tests so central to our common needs.


:rolleyes:
 
Mr. Meglobyte...the problem is that some people don't think the sebenza is, as you say, "without a doubt, one of the finest made, highest quality production knives in existance". If you don't agree with the dissenting opinions that's cool, but if "well, it gets me irritated" then as they say in the carribean...take a chill pill man. :)
 
Flipping a knife open certainly puts a lot of stress on the knife and will shorten the life of any knife. As one poster here noted, any first year engineering student can see why: f=ma, force=mass x acceleration. (mass is NOT weight and acceleration is not SPEED!) Flipping open the blade accelerates it into motion which is stopped by (ta dam) the stop pin. The pin absorbes the energy over a small area in a part with very low mass. Depending on the design of the pin and frame, the stress may be carried over to the frame and wear it as well. Usually the stop pin will have a tiny flat area from this which will radically change the lock up geometry for the worse. At best the lock bar will move further over the blade towards the frame and at worst it will no longer contact the blade with enough spring enerrgy to effect lock up. Anyone who says differently must be using different laws of mechanics.

So flipping a knife open wears it out faster. Like driving a car in a race wears it out faster. Race car owners expect to rebuild their engines constantly. Simple. All knives wear out anyway, directly in proportion to the amount and nature of the use they receive. Use you knives as needed. Do not abuse them unless you have good reason.

So flip a knife open if needed, but be aware that it is hard use. And sitting in front of the TV flipping a knife open all evening is real hard use. It's the owner's choice. Flipping any knife a few times should not destroy it.

Some makers/companies cover this under warranty othes don't. As Mr. Glesser points out, nothing is free and not all companies and makers back up their warranty claims as well as Spyderco. One should keep that in mind too. The best warranty is the one you never need. The best maker/company is the one who doesn't worry about "the fine print" but instead about taking care of the reasonable concerns of their customers, whatever the warranty situation. I think both Spyderco and Chris Reeve are pretty close to the top in both respects. Customers who set out to tear up products to see what that's like shouldn't expect the maker/company to pay for it.

The "spine whack" test should not harm any properly built folder, is much less stressful that flipping the blade open, and is a very good way to quickly see if the lock on a folder is secure. Spine whacking does not mean clamping the knife in a vice and beating the blade with a hammer! It means whacking the blade spine on a the edge of a piece of wood to see if the lock withstands the shock and impact. A knife that won't hold up to this test should not be used as it is dangerous. A medium whack is enough. Don't try and see how hard you can hit!

In the spine whack the force is transfered through the blade to the locking bar. The bar contacts the blade over a much larger area than the stop pin and the bar has a much greater mass than the stop pin. Also the bar is not fixed in place and can move under the impact. THAT is the POINT of the test! To see if the bar moves (unlocking the blade) or if it remains in place or - as is often the case - if the the bar moves a bit further along in the locked direction.

So in short: flip any knife you want: it will wear BOTH the cheap ones and the expensive ones out faster. Once it's broke, then you can see who will and who will not fix it for free. The proof is in the pudding not in the writing. If there's no need to flip it, then open it normally. Duh.

Give your knife the spine whack test! You'll immediately see if your knife has a reliable lock. If not, send it back, no mater who made it or what their warranty is or is not.
 
The engineers I work with design and select materials for the intended use of a mechanical object. Just because a certain application gives more force on a sytem than others does not preculde a good designer from compensating for that in their design and materials choices. But you may need more than a first year engineer for that :).

On other threads regarding whether or not flicking is hard use, some knifemakers have indicated that their product is designed and the materials are selected so that flicking is not a problem. In a long past thread, one manufacturer indicated that they consider their stop pin material and hardening to be something they don't divulge. There are more examples, like the Emerson's wave and the Spyderco Starmate which are all knives that were designed to be flicked open.
 
I've studied a lot of production folders and feel that a lot of them could use better design and engineering in their stop pin, mating surface to the stop pin, and pivot assemblies. Plus some of them are built with the triangle (stop pin, pivot pin, and lock) so close together that the simple physics of it becomes a force multiplier in certain respects.

The thread about the pin material/hardening/process is something that I would agree with that company on as far as not advertising how they do it - sounds like they have put some hard study into this area and realized how much of a problem it can cause down the road. The biggest flaw I see in most "tactical" folders is not necessaruly the lock device they use but the pivot mechanism and the stop pin/mating surface area.

With all that said, if and when we get a folder to market you can bet that flicking it open is not going to be something we consider abuse. This is not to take away from my previous post that CR is free to do whatever they want as a company...and obviously they're doing something right.

Jeff
 
Well put Kevin. Am I the only retarded one that can't flip open my Sebenza? Can someone give me a reasonable explanation as to why flipping open a folder is so important. And could we possibly make a specific designation for degree of flipping. I would say a 10 degree rating system. One being gentle flipping with thumb help and 10 would be full out thacking open of the blade. A machine will be designed that will flip open a knife at each level. Additionally the knives will flipped at the degree set by a random number generator. Each knife will be flipped to failure. The score will be given thussly, the number of flips to failure times the average of the forces required to push the knife to failure. This type of rating system will take into account the different ways people open a knife and should yeild reliable relative data on any given knives ability to handle flipping. That way maybe we can get some useful objective data to back up the claims that have been so freely claimed by Mr. Brownshoe and Mr. Stamp. Come on Cliff, I know you are fully capable of setting up such a system of objective testing to give reliable answers to the relative durability of a $30 folder versus a $340 folder. Cliff this is a big deal. If you can prove the relative reliablity of a folder it would really great. Also maybe we could add an index dividing each knives score by it's MSRP and get a $/ relative reliability unit. You know like at the market where the price on the self includes a $/oz. or something like that. The bottom line would be that you can get a reliable number for eack knife. Knife A would have a score of say $.05/relative reliability unit and knife B might be $5/relative relibilty unit. Clearly, knife A is the better relative knife. Obviously, I have too much time on my hands and a bit of Christmas cheer on board. So Merry Christmas to all my fellow knife nuts (yeah even Brownshoe and Stamp) and may you all see a prosperous 2005! :D
 
R.A.T. said:
I've studied a lot of production folders and feel that a lot of them could use better design and engineering in their stop pin, mating surface to the stop pin, and pivot assemblies. Plus some of them are built with the triangle (stop pin, pivot pin, and lock) so close together that the simple physics of it becomes a force multiplier in certain respects.
Jeff
Click to expand...

I certainly agree with you there. The pivot assembly on my knives is made up of 7 pieces!

Getting the lock geometry right is also key. I too have examined folders where the triangle you mention is a major design flaw IMHO. Having access to advanced computer design systems such as those used to test crash forces in autos woud be a big help too! A problem I am running up against now is that the costs of the machines I need can never be covered by the amount of knives I alone can produce. These systems can only be used by companies ... or the occasional knifemaker who's day job allows acces to such equipment! The lucky dogs. :D

R.A.T. said:
The thread about the pin material/hardening/process is something that I would agree with that company on as far as not advertising how they do it - sounds like they have put some hard study into this area and realized how much of a problem it can cause down the road. The biggest flaw I see in most "tactical" folders is not necessaruly the lock device they use but the pivot mechanism and the stop pin/mating surface area.
Jeff
Click to expand...

Some simple "reverse engineering" should suffice there! There aren't any big secrets in heat treating and there aren't that many stainless steels to choose from either. The solution to the problem of a round stop pin contacting against a flat blade rear is tough. You need to increase the contact point from a tiny tangent on the stop pin. Some use a rounded contact surface on the blade, but I don't know how much this really helps.

I think the bottom line is still, slinging a blade open will always put more wear and tear on the knife than opening it normally. As long as users know this, fine. If there's a reason to open it so, fine. Doing this hundreds of time while watching a Chuck Norris film is bad reason IMHO. But hey, if tht's why the guy bought the knife, he should just realise it will wear out a lot faster.

Racing engines are designed to be raced. They still wear out in no time when run and raced as designed. But I bet if some d*ck hops in and immediately revs the COLD engine up to 12 grand to say "cool, dude" that they guy who built that engine would break his neck!

:p
 
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