Life after titanium framelock flippers

[Lapedog]

Although this question wasn't directed at me, I'll answer with my own issues.

To me, the frame lock and liner locks have inherent flaws.

Firstly, both essentially rely on friction to be "locked". There's a fine line between the lock being "solid", and being unsafe. It doesn't simply rely on the contact between the blade and lock surfaces, but also the integrity of the rest of the knife. Also, a knife could be locked better with a solid thwack when opening the knife, or barely locked if gently opened. I think a knife should be locked when locked, unlocked when unlocked, with no varying amount of lock-up inbetween. Granted, a quality frame or liner lock should be as safe for normal use, but you never know.

Second, the nature of the lock means that it'll wear. Yes, all knives wear, but frame and liner locks are the most susceptible. Carbidization and/or lock inserts is a good idea, but it's still a part that wears, and wear can mean unsafeness.

Third, the position of the lock can compromise the security of the lock when gripped. See Joe's story above. Myself, when using the Spyderco Sage 2, I found that a tight grip would actually undo the lock. People say that a tight grip will hold the lock bar tight and keep the knife locked, and that makes sense in theory, but in practice with that particular frame lock my hand would actually push the lock open. Surely, this varies from knife to knife and person to person, so for some people with some knives, it might be an unsafe choice. A liner lock with it's (typically) thinner stock and weaker lock means that it can similarly be accidentally disengaged.

Finally, as some have already mentioned, closing the knife puts your digits - mainly the thumb - in the path of the blade. This has long been my primary beef with frame and liner locks, and the main reason I'm such a fan of the AXIS lock. Flip it open, unlock it and flip it closed, all without needing to even touch the thumb studs. The flipper can act as a stop though, so that's a good development, even if it is incidental to the intention of the flipper tab to be the opening method. However, I'm still not a fan.

Excellent post. I have always found that the claim that holding a knife with a framelock reinforces the lock to be dubious. On almost every one of my ti framelocks the lockbar never is gripped in a way so as to exert any real extra pressure keeping the lockbar over. Rather the lockbar seems to almost always fall in the crook of my curled finger.

This knife suffers from if I close my pointer finger tight it causes the lockbar to get pushes by the fat of my finger towards unlocking. Not enough to unlock but enough to move the bar far enough over that it loses that friction contact you mentioned.

 

[MSchott]

Yes you can and I do

I wear suits most days and a pocket clipped folder is well just plain stupid looking and not an option for me

A small fixed blade worn in a horizontal sheath weak side I carry a gun strong side is hidden by a suit jacket or when dressed casual an untucked t shirt

You can’t conceal a pocket clip

When carrying a folder I also carry in a horizontal sheath weak side and it disappears just like the fixed blade on my belt line

I’m sorry to tell you that your not to discreet with an over built frame lock hanging on your worn out front pocket...in fact quite the opposite

Example

Tonight I just walked into a baseball game where there is no weapons allowed

No one was getting in with their pocket clipped folder showing on their front pocket

I walked in with a sport coat and a pair of jeans with a knife worn in a black horizontal carry sheath on my weak side and a scandium titanium 357 on my strong side smiled at security and they waved me on

I don’t understand the point you are trying to make. You are bragging that you violated the rules? The answer in that scenario is to leave your weapons at home.

 

[JParanee]

I don’t understand the point you are trying to make. You are bragging that you violated the rules? The answer in that scenario is to leave your weapons at home.

My answer was a reply to you that carrying a knife in your pocket on a clip was not that low key

Leaving my Stuff at home is not an option when I can carry in a way that no one bothers me

 

[Eagle Scout]

I like flippers too, I would just like to see more that aren't all grey on grey or black on grey.

I'm with you 100% and the reason my collection has entered the Bronze Age.

 

[MSchott]

My answer was a reply to you that carrying a knife in your pocket on a clip was not that low key

Leaving my Stuff at home is not an option when I can carry in a way that no one bothers me

We are not going to agree on your last point but that’s fine.

But as mentioned above by another poster, my point is not about concealed carry. In normal carry, a folder is far more discreet than a fixed blade.

 

[JParanee]

We are not going to agree on your last point but that’s fine.

But as mentioned above by another poster, my point is not about concealed carry. In normal carry, a folder is far more discreet than a fixed blade.

Not true

We will have to agree to disagree

Try going into NY city with a pocket clip knife showing and see how that goes

Thx

 

[MSchott]

Not true

We will have to agree to disagree

Try going into NY city with a pocket clip knife showing and see how that goes

Thx

If it’s not legal to do so I wouldn’t do it.

 

[JParanee]

If it’s not legal to do so I wouldn’t do it.

Like I said we will have to agree to disagree but the question was which carry method was less conspicuous

 

[91bravo]

Of course, if you drop anything down into your pocket, it's going to be less conspicuous; fixed or folder. So folder being easier to carry than a fixed, or vice versa, doesn't really hold any weight. A folder clipped to your pocket will still be more discreet than carrying a fixed on your belt, unless you have your untucked shirt covering it.

 

[JParanee]

When wearing a suit a small fixed blade worn IWB or horizontally is going to be much more discreet than a knife with a pocket clip

Dropping a folder down in your suit pants is also gong to print and not carry well and be slower to get into action

Think about this when is the last time you meet someone dressed in a suit and saw them with a pocket clip knife on

For casual again worn correctly a small fixed blade is going to conceal much better than a pocket clip showing

Dom does a good job showing how a fixed blade can be worn Inconspicuously

The problem is most people are not up to speed on how to carry or use a good edc fixed blade

I’ll say this again any real practitioners of blade craft are not promoting large frame lock folders

Every year I work the largest knife show in the world and I’m sorry to say the people buying these over built frame locks are dressed in brown and tan and they have soft hands and bags for bellies. They are the same ones buying the skull beads and patches.

A well built flipper with a liner lock can be a very nice knife for edc but I’m sorry I just can’t get into the big goofy frame locks

 

[91bravo]

When wearing a suit a small fixed blade worn IWB or horizontally is going to be much more discreet than a knife with a pocket clip

Dropping a folder down in your suit pants is also gong to print and not carry well and be slower to get into action

Think about this when is the last time you meet someone dressed in a suit and saw them with a pocket clip knife on

For casual again worn correctly a small fixed blade is going to conceal much better than a pocket clip showing

Dom does a good job showing how a fixed blade can be worn Inconspicuously

The problem is most people are not up to speed on how to carry or use a good edc fixed blade

I’ll say this again any real practitioners of blade craft are not promoting large frame lock folders

Every year I work the largest knife show in the world and I’m sorry to say the people buying these over built frame locks are dressed in brown and tan and they have soft hands and bags for bellies. They are the same ones buying the skull beads and patches.

A well built flipper with a liner lock can be a very nice knife for edc but I’m sorry I just can’t get into the big goofy frame locks

This sounds like a very biased opinion if I ever heard one. Exactly what it is; YOUR opinion. What may work for you may not work for others. You work at the largest knife show in the world? Soft hands, bags for bellies? You sound like you're better than everyone else. What's wrong with skull beads and patches? Did you ever think that maybe some just can't get into carrying a fixed blade horizontally on their belt? That's the beauty of the knife market today. There's something for everyone out there. Just because someone does it differently than you , doesn't mean it's wrong...

 

[JParanee]

This sounds like a very biased opinion if I ever heard one. Exactly what it is; YOUR opinion. What may work for you may not work for others. You work at the largest knife show in the world? Soft hands, bags for bellies? You sound like you're better than everyone else. What's wrong with skull beads and patches? Did you ever think that maybe some just can't get into carrying a fixed blade horizontally on their belt? That's the beauty of the knife market today. There's something for everyone out there. Just because someone does it differently than you , doesn't mean it's wrong...

Nothing wrong with that I just don’t take their advice on what to carry

My reply was that a knife carried with a pocket clip in front pocket is not less conspicuous than carrying a fixed blade and to that end I stand by my statement

 

[sharp_edge]

Not really. Framelock and linerlock rely on the tension of lockbar, has little to do with the friction.

Although this question wasn't directed at me, I'll answer with my own issues.

To me, the frame lock and liner locks have inherent flaws.

Firstly, both essentially rely on friction to be "locked". There's a fine line between the lock being "solid", and being unsafe. It doesn't simply rely on the contact between the blade and lock surfaces, but also the integrity of the rest of the knife. Also, a knife could be locked better with a solid thwack when opening the knife, or barely locked if gently opened. I think a knife should be locked when locked, unlocked when unlocked, with no varying amount of lock-up inbetween. Granted, a quality frame or liner lock should be as safe for normal use, but you never know.

Second, the nature of the lock means that it'll wear. Yes, all knives wear, but frame and liner locks are the most susceptible. Carbidization and/or lock inserts is a good idea, but it's still a part that wears, and wear can mean unsafeness.

Third, the position of the lock can compromise the security of the lock when gripped. See Joe's story above. Myself, when using the Spyderco Sage 2, I found that a tight grip would actually undo the lock. People say that a tight grip will hold the lock bar tight and keep the knife locked, and that makes sense in theory, but in practice with that particular frame lock my hand would actually push the lock open. Surely, this varies from knife to knife and person to person, so for some people with some knives, it might be an unsafe choice. A liner lock with it's (typically) thinner stock and weaker lock means that it can similarly be accidentally disengaged.

Finally, as some have already mentioned, closing the knife puts your digits - mainly the thumb - in the path of the blade. This has long been my primary beef with frame and liner locks, and the main reason I'm such a fan of the AXIS lock. Flip it open, unlock it and flip it closed, all without needing to even touch the thumb studs. The flipper can act as a stop though, so that's a good development, even if it is incidental to the intention of the flipper tab to be the opening method. However, I'm still not a fan.

 

[stabman]

Excellent post. I have always found that the claim that holding a knife with a framelock reinforces the lock to be dubious.

Except that it is true, depending on the design of the individual knife.

I tested it on a cheap Chinese made steel fame-lock my brother had.
It was worn out so the lock-bar touched the opposite scale.
It would close with extremely minimal pressure on the spine of the blade.
It was also extremely dull...

So, I gripped it, and lifted some weights off the ground that I had looped a rope through.
It was 40 pounds, if my memory is correct. It wasn't like 100 pounds or anything, but it was a crap-load more than the almost non-existent amount of force that would close it with spine pressure.

Now, this will not work with every frame-lock; the handle design must be such that your finger exerts some force when holding the knife in a normal grip.
Of my knives, about 80 percent of the frame-locks are designed such that the grip will hold the lock-bar in place more securely.
On the other 20 percent, it will not.

But since I don't own crappy knives, they all have locks that work on their own anyway.

 

[jceckrosh]

I don’t mean to offend anyone’s taste but I’m involved in the industry a bit and when I’m at the shows the over built frame locks in the industry are kinda a joke

Look at any real operators and they are going with small fixed blades lie the Blood Shark or something like Dom Raso’s Winkler made little fixed blade

So the overbuilt knives are a joke, but they get made because they get bought. Most of those who have them probably know they are impractical, but hey, they might be fun or make someone happy.

Are most people on here "real operators" or pretending to be one? No, probably not. So most of us do not need to worry about "operator" criteria for what we buy. I am fairly certain I will not be doing any "operating", although I have dissected a lot of sheep organs this year in school.

I’ll say this again any real practitioners of blade craft are not promoting large frame lock folders

Every year I work the largest knife show in the world and I’m sorry to say the people buying these over built frame locks are dressed in brown and tan and they have soft hands and bags for bellies. They are the same ones buying the skull beads and patches.

Is a "real practitioner of blade craft" a maker of knives that are not large frame locks? Or a deadly knife fighting honest to goodness ninja guy?

Does brown and tan mean camo? Like hunting camo? And everyone buying those knives and beads and patches is fat with soft hands?

 

[stabman]

Plus you know how stupid you look in a suit with a pocket clip screwing up your pants

At my brother's wedding we were wearing tuxedos.
We both had folders clipped in the pants, and we looked good.

He had a ZT 0551 clipped in his pocket, and it saved the day by being able to cut the loose thread that was hanging from one of the bridesmaid's dresses.
She was all sad about the thread, and it was becoming a "major dilemma"...until one of the women asked if anyone had anything like scissors or a knife to cut away the thread.
Zero Tolerance to the rescue!!!

I had the Spyderco Kris with me, as it fits the lines of a Tux or suit even better.

 

[stabman]

Every year I work the largest knife show in the world and I’m sorry to say the people buying these over built frame locks are dressed in brown and tan and they have soft hands and bags for bellies.

Well, I don't have a bag for a belly...

...but that's because I watch what I eat so carefully.

And I guess all your "real operators" have never had to face down the dreaded Woods Lobster

If not for my overbuilt titanium frame-lock knife, I would have surely died that day.
Instead, I feasted on the flesh of my enemy.

 

[Mr.SATism]

I thought we were On the modern traditional kick right now? I know I might be green to the sharp world, but when I was searching for my first, it was just before WE/Kizer shook things up, but there were a lot of ZT frame flippers. If we’re talking about diversifying the market, then yes there does need to be something more for Canadians to choose from action wise (please don’t get rid of thumbstuds Canada)

 

[dirc]

if Jesus from the WD series ever needs a stunt double or something, you should sign up

 

[jceckrosh]

if Jesus from the WD series ever needs a stunt double or something, you should sign up

I was thinking young Kid Rock.