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Looking for Fairbanks hammer operating manual...
- Thread starter Mike Krall
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 162
I thought I would post the rest of the pictures of the complete hammer.
Here is the back view again in a larger size, so you can see the top of the linkage from the pedal.
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Here is the bottom of the pedal linkage along with the torched bar that used to run diagonally to hold up the motor.
[/IMG]
Here is a front view, but if you look back along the side you can se the pedal linkage.
[/IMG]
Here is the right side after paint removal.
[/IMG]
Finally, just for fun. here is a pic of one of the piles of what the needle scaler is capable of doing.
[/IMG]
Here is the back view again in a larger size, so you can see the top of the linkage from the pedal.
Here is the bottom of the pedal linkage along with the torched bar that used to run diagonally to hold up the motor.
Here is a front view, but if you look back along the side you can se the pedal linkage.
Here is the right side after paint removal.
Finally, just for fun. here is a pic of one of the piles of what the needle scaler is capable of doing.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 162
Bruce, my time frame at this point in life is "when I feel like it." I tend to stick with things pretty hard, at least until I don't, if you know what I mean.
I probably have 2 days in degreasing, 2 days in needle scaling, a week in disassembly and beginning to bead blast parts, including the main shaft removal, and another week of cleaning and bead blasting all the parts and wire brushing the machine with an angle grinder. This time was mixed together, since I would get tired of one thing and go to something else for awhile. There is alot of pondering time and store runs in there as well. As you know, there is no set of instructions included here.
Mike and Dan, I just realized that my last picture could be entitled "Pile of Patina." Now that I know what patina looks like, all piled together like that, I wonder why it is not canned and sold by the pound?
I probably have 2 days in degreasing, 2 days in needle scaling, a week in disassembly and beginning to bead blast parts, including the main shaft removal, and another week of cleaning and bead blasting all the parts and wire brushing the machine with an angle grinder. This time was mixed together, since I would get tired of one thing and go to something else for awhile. There is alot of pondering time and store runs in there as well. As you know, there is no set of instructions included here.
Mike and Dan, I just realized that my last picture could be entitled "Pile of Patina." Now that I know what patina looks like, all piled together like that, I wonder why it is not canned and sold by the pound?
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2005
- Messages
- 834
Robert,
Can you get a thin piece of metal down to the floor in the front of the anvil/base?
Unless you find weld or wedges or ??? along the sides, I can't imagine how the anvil would have been "secured" to the base. Have you tried penetrating oil? A person might be able to get the frame up on bars (round or otherwise) just a small distance but not support the bottom of the anvil. Could WD it and after soaking thump on the top of the anvil with a sledge and a block of tough wood... go around corner to corner, maybe... it really ought to come free with enough fussing.
---------------------------------------------
Looking at the pictures of the back of your hammer and those of the drive disc and shaft. I'm thinking you might have to have a different shaft to move the drive pulley to the rear. What does it look like to you? If you get a chance, send some of your pictures to Sid. Maybe some of the Roger Smith pics of overhead solution. Sid would likely come up with ideas if it turns out you can't move the drive pulley.
I actually think the overhead solution allows more movement of the tensioner pulley. That would help accomodate belt stretch and/or changing friction on pulleys.
Can you tell me what your belt is made of? How thick is it? What type of connector is used?
Mike
Can you get a thin piece of metal down to the floor in the front of the anvil/base?
Unless you find weld or wedges or ??? along the sides, I can't imagine how the anvil would have been "secured" to the base. Have you tried penetrating oil? A person might be able to get the frame up on bars (round or otherwise) just a small distance but not support the bottom of the anvil. Could WD it and after soaking thump on the top of the anvil with a sledge and a block of tough wood... go around corner to corner, maybe... it really ought to come free with enough fussing.
---------------------------------------------
Looking at the pictures of the back of your hammer and those of the drive disc and shaft. I'm thinking you might have to have a different shaft to move the drive pulley to the rear. What does it look like to you? If you get a chance, send some of your pictures to Sid. Maybe some of the Roger Smith pics of overhead solution. Sid would likely come up with ideas if it turns out you can't move the drive pulley.
I actually think the overhead solution allows more movement of the tensioner pulley. That would help accomodate belt stretch and/or changing friction on pulleys.
Can you tell me what your belt is made of? How thick is it? What type of connector is used?
Mike
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2005
- Messages
- 834
Robert,
I was looking at the close-up of the sow block, dies and keys. When you go to put your die keys back in, if you put a 0.005" to 0.010" brass or copper shim in the "out" key next to the sow block, your keys won't stick-out/go-in as far. Would allow you more room to tighten if needed down the road. Any of the dovetails can be shimmed this way... putting the shim stock along the non-key side. Don't know how much clearance you have on the upper die key... there is a limited amount of room before it will foul the mounting frame... whatever...
Mike
I was looking at the close-up of the sow block, dies and keys. When you go to put your die keys back in, if you put a 0.005" to 0.010" brass or copper shim in the "out" key next to the sow block, your keys won't stick-out/go-in as far. Would allow you more room to tighten if needed down the road. Any of the dovetails can be shimmed this way... putting the shim stock along the non-key side. Don't know how much clearance you have on the upper die key... there is a limited amount of room before it will foul the mounting frame... whatever...
Mike
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2005
- Messages
- 834
I understand Phil... I suppose a person could start another thread with a name drawing title and a link to this one but it doesn't seem like putting whatever is left of this one in it makes it work easily. The other thread would just disappear into the vastness of this place, it seems.
In some ways, the reality of this thread as opposed to it's title is just like Fairbanks hammers... a really great tool that no one has ever heard of... =]
Mike
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 162
Hey Guys. I actually cleaned up the shop around the hammer today. All of the dirty work is over.
Mike, I tried to dig around the anvil today. I hit metal down the front well before the bottom of the base - somewhere not far below the bolt hole down there. I wonder what it is for? Have you ever stuck anything down the front of yours? The right side is too tight to get anything down. The left side has very little room, and I was able to get down in there 1/2 inch or so, but the crud is just too solid for a hacksaw blade, and my sawzall blade just bucked out. I stuck an inspection camera in the side hole of the anvil, and the anvil is open right down to the floor. I could see the pallet that the hammer is sitting on. The anvil really is just a shell.
I will definitely need a new shaft to hang the pulley off the back. I think I need a new shaft anyhow, since mine is scoured pretty badly. I am also concerned about that little flange around the shaft on the back. How big in diameter and thickness is that flange on the hammers of you guys with pulleys off the back of the hammer?
Mike, thanks for the tip on the wedges and all of the other tips as well. I will use them all when I put the hammer back together. I have some more pictures, but I will need to sign off and get back on to post them.
Mike, I tried to dig around the anvil today. I hit metal down the front well before the bottom of the base - somewhere not far below the bolt hole down there. I wonder what it is for? Have you ever stuck anything down the front of yours? The right side is too tight to get anything down. The left side has very little room, and I was able to get down in there 1/2 inch or so, but the crud is just too solid for a hacksaw blade, and my sawzall blade just bucked out. I stuck an inspection camera in the side hole of the anvil, and the anvil is open right down to the floor. I could see the pallet that the hammer is sitting on. The anvil really is just a shell.
I will definitely need a new shaft to hang the pulley off the back. I think I need a new shaft anyhow, since mine is scoured pretty badly. I am also concerned about that little flange around the shaft on the back. How big in diameter and thickness is that flange on the hammers of you guys with pulleys off the back of the hammer?
Mike, thanks for the tip on the wedges and all of the other tips as well. I will use them all when I put the hammer back together. I have some more pictures, but I will need to sign off and get back on to post them.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2005
- Messages
- 834
Robert,
I was at the shop this afternoon and I knew I needed to measure the drive pulley end of the shaft but got "busy" and didn't. I'll get the info to you and see if I can get some idea of the shaft diameter under the sleeve between the yokes.
Given you may need to build parts from scratch, see if Sid will put you in touch with Doug Freund. He may be able to help along those lines. I had a good time yapping with Doug on the phone and we did a fair amount of e-mailing through the time when I was building parts.
Mike
I was at the shop this afternoon and I knew I needed to measure the drive pulley end of the shaft but got "busy" and didn't. I'll get the info to you and see if I can get some idea of the shaft diameter under the sleeve between the yokes.
Given you may need to build parts from scratch, see if Sid will put you in touch with Doug Freund. He may be able to help along those lines. I had a good time yapping with Doug on the phone and we did a fair amount of e-mailing through the time when I was building parts.
Mike
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 162
Here are some more pictures.
Stripped frame from front.
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Stripped frame from left side.
[/IMG]
Stripped frame from back.
[/IMG]
Stripped frame from right side.
[/IMG]
All parts from the hammer!
[/IMG]
From faceplate.
[/IMG]
Casting flaw- only Fa_rbanks in existence.
[/IMG]
Stripped frame from front.
Stripped frame from left side.
Stripped frame from back.
Stripped frame from right side.
All parts from the hammer!
From faceplate.
Casting flaw- only Fa_rbanks in existence.
later guys.- Joined
- Feb 4, 2005
- Messages
- 834
Robert,
In "stripped frame from right side"... You mentioned earlier, or Dan mentioned, bolts going through bushings and something along the lines of removing to oil/grease. I'm pretty sure that is where grease cups would be mounted and where I fabbed in grease zerks.
Are there seats on the outside of the bushings for the positioning setscrews and/or do the set screws have cupped ends? I assume the bushings are not cast in place but they may have been line bored in either case... Sid might know about the general process, though he probably won't know the specific Fairbanks process.
On the odd chance you'd need one... I've got a 5 degree carbide dovetail cutter you could borrow if you know someone who is sharp with a mill... bigger than a #1 Bridgeport would save a lot of machining hours (I know that first hand). It was built for a 50# so there is not an unlimited length and it may not be long enough to do you any good. One other thing, "Bear" builds dies with a bandsaw and 4 1/2" angle grinder. A bandsaw is the fast way of getting excess metal gone compared to anything but a big mill.
Do I have it right, your "B" is #182?
Mike
In "stripped frame from right side"... You mentioned earlier, or Dan mentioned, bolts going through bushings and something along the lines of removing to oil/grease. I'm pretty sure that is where grease cups would be mounted and where I fabbed in grease zerks.
Are there seats on the outside of the bushings for the positioning setscrews and/or do the set screws have cupped ends? I assume the bushings are not cast in place but they may have been line bored in either case... Sid might know about the general process, though he probably won't know the specific Fairbanks process.
On the odd chance you'd need one... I've got a 5 degree carbide dovetail cutter you could borrow if you know someone who is sharp with a mill... bigger than a #1 Bridgeport would save a lot of machining hours (I know that first hand). It was built for a 50# so there is not an unlimited length and it may not be long enough to do you any good. One other thing, "Bear" builds dies with a bandsaw and 4 1/2" angle grinder. A bandsaw is the fast way of getting excess metal gone compared to anything but a big mill.
Do I have it right, your "B" is #182?
Mike
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- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 162
Bruce, yeah, that is my 1949 Ford F-1. I love the old truck and drive it a great deal.
Mike, there are oil holes in each bushing and separate set screws in each bushing, I believe to hold the bushings in place, but they do go all the way through the bushing to the shaft. I agree that the oil holes are a great place to install grease zerks, and I plan t do that. Here is a picture looking into the front bushing which shows the oil galleys cut into the bushing so the oil can flow laterally.
[/IMG]
The bigger hole is for the bushing set screw, and the smaller one is the oil hole with the oil galley intersecting it.
In the following picture, you can see the outline of the front bushing on the flange. The bushing is quite thick - 1/2 inch or so at least, and they appear to be bronze. I figure to get a machine shop to take these out, make some and press them in for me.
[/IMG]
What metal does Bear build dies from? Have you ever tried it?
Mike, there are oil holes in each bushing and separate set screws in each bushing, I believe to hold the bushings in place, but they do go all the way through the bushing to the shaft. I agree that the oil holes are a great place to install grease zerks, and I plan t do that. Here is a picture looking into the front bushing which shows the oil galleys cut into the bushing so the oil can flow laterally.
The bigger hole is for the bushing set screw, and the smaller one is the oil hole with the oil galley intersecting it.
In the following picture, you can see the outline of the front bushing on the flange. The bushing is quite thick - 1/2 inch or so at least, and they appear to be bronze. I figure to get a machine shop to take these out, make some and press them in for me.
What metal does Bear build dies from? Have you ever tried it?
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 162
Mike, here is a picture of the rear bushing housing showing the set screw hole to hold the bushing and the oil hole.
[/IMG]
I am not sure if 182 is the serial number, as shown on a bras tag on the face plate and another one on the left side of the hammer, or if the serial number is 848, as scribed into the front faceplate in that small flat area. Both numbers show in the picture I posted of the face plate. Does your 50# have the same setup for numbers?
I am not sure if 182 is the serial number, as shown on a bras tag on the face plate and another one on the left side of the hammer, or if the serial number is 848, as scribed into the front faceplate in that small flat area. Both numbers show in the picture I posted of the face plate. Does your 50# have the same setup for numbers?
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- Feb 4, 2005
- Messages
- 834
Whew! Took me awhile, Robert... staring at the inside and outside pictures... for the light to go on, or at least I think it went on... =] The bolt holding the bushing in sets in the bushing hole, short of the turning shaft, and prevents rotation. Like a person would turn the bolt in to light touch on the shaft then back it off to clear. I don't know, something seems odd about that so maybe I'm not getting it after all.
The more I look at your hammer and our hammer, the more I see differences and I'm not sure it's differences in drive-type or size. I think it's difference in time but I've got no way to tell and the only two people I know of who might know are Doug Freund and Bruce Wallace. I've got some drawings of 50# sowblock and dies and there are double numbers in a few places... one set hand written it. Like there are two time versions... at least.
The bandsawing I did building a sow block and set of dies (die's form based on what Sid has found to work well sith LG's, so not true Fairbanks dimensions) was roughing out... cut to 1/16" of a generous line. Still, my friend Joe's (40 year tool and die maker) #1 Bridgeport struggled... wrong tool for the job. "Bear" cuts darn close and grinds to size. He'd use frozen peanut butter for dies if it was cheap and he could figure a way to keep it frozen. Talking with Sid, he felt 1018/1020 was fine for the sow block and he and Keri use 4140 for dies... heat treated to 46-48 RHc. I was going to flame harden the dies Joe and I built but talked myself out of it. Sent them to Sid and Keri and they ran them to their heat treater when they had a load of their own dies to be done (took months... so you know).
If you are looking to build slip-in dies, and they are not complicated, A-36 works fine enough. They will wear out but building new ones isn't a problem if they are simple. The reality is a person runs a hammer on less-than-hot steel. The dies have to be able to live through that so they need to be harder than mild steel is. There are folks using A-36 dies in their hydraulic presses and getting along just fine (hyd. press dies get a lot more heat contact than hammer dies do but the beating isn't there). If a person avoided hammering cold, soft dies would probably work. Sid will have an outlook on the subject... there's no way he hasn't gone down a number of different roads on this already.
A little aside... Jerry Rados (2 hammers, no press, one at 500# and a baby one at 200#) used H-13 for his dies and heat treated them in a cut-in-half water tank full of motor oil (cut as a trough). He made them bainite... stood over the oil (heated around 400F), straddling the quench tank and lowered the red hot dies into it... said he was really hoping the oil wouldn't flash... =] Also said he'll never make bainite dies again... too soft.
Our hammer has a totally different hammer number set up... on "United Hammer Co." plate with other info on the off side (not in pics) and number stamped... one of the differences between yours and ours I was noticing.
Too much yapping...
Mike
The more I look at your hammer and our hammer, the more I see differences and I'm not sure it's differences in drive-type or size. I think it's difference in time but I've got no way to tell and the only two people I know of who might know are Doug Freund and Bruce Wallace. I've got some drawings of 50# sowblock and dies and there are double numbers in a few places... one set hand written it. Like there are two time versions... at least.
The bandsawing I did building a sow block and set of dies (die's form based on what Sid has found to work well sith LG's, so not true Fairbanks dimensions) was roughing out... cut to 1/16" of a generous line. Still, my friend Joe's (40 year tool and die maker) #1 Bridgeport struggled... wrong tool for the job. "Bear" cuts darn close and grinds to size. He'd use frozen peanut butter for dies if it was cheap and he could figure a way to keep it frozen. Talking with Sid, he felt 1018/1020 was fine for the sow block and he and Keri use 4140 for dies... heat treated to 46-48 RHc. I was going to flame harden the dies Joe and I built but talked myself out of it. Sent them to Sid and Keri and they ran them to their heat treater when they had a load of their own dies to be done (took months... so you know).
If you are looking to build slip-in dies, and they are not complicated, A-36 works fine enough. They will wear out but building new ones isn't a problem if they are simple. The reality is a person runs a hammer on less-than-hot steel. The dies have to be able to live through that so they need to be harder than mild steel is. There are folks using A-36 dies in their hydraulic presses and getting along just fine (hyd. press dies get a lot more heat contact than hammer dies do but the beating isn't there). If a person avoided hammering cold, soft dies would probably work. Sid will have an outlook on the subject... there's no way he hasn't gone down a number of different roads on this already.
A little aside... Jerry Rados (2 hammers, no press, one at 500# and a baby one at 200#) used H-13 for his dies and heat treated them in a cut-in-half water tank full of motor oil (cut as a trough). He made them bainite... stood over the oil (heated around 400F), straddling the quench tank and lowered the red hot dies into it... said he was really hoping the oil wouldn't flash... =] Also said he'll never make bainite dies again... too soft.
Our hammer has a totally different hammer number set up... on "United Hammer Co." plate with other info on the off side (not in pics) and number stamped... one of the differences between yours and ours I was noticing.
Too much yapping...
Mike
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Big difference I see is in the faceplate. Mine is a United, Mike's also , I believe. Structurally, they are the same, differing only in shaft configuration. Dan's has a new faceplate , so don't know about his.
I have a casting defect on mine which I am repairing right now. One of the faceplate holes was crooked. A bent bolt was used , instead of cleaning out the hole. Having my neighbor make me a long mandrel for a carbide bit to clean it out some.
I have a casting defect on mine which I am repairing right now. One of the faceplate holes was crooked. A bent bolt was used , instead of cleaning out the hole. Having my neighbor make me a long mandrel for a carbide bit to clean it out some.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 162
Anyone know when the Fairbanks versus Dupont thing happened and which was made first?
Mike, you are correct, I believe. The set screw into the bushing holds the bushing in place and keeps it from spinning which would block the oil hole to the main shaft. I see no reason at all why the set screw hole needs to go all the way to the main shaft, and, in fact, it appears dangerous for it to go all the way through, since the set screw could contact the main shaft, if it was over tightened. However, since it goes all the way to the main shaft, it could be used to get more lubricant to the main shaft, if someone wanted to take it out, lubricate, and put it back in. I am going to mark my set screws or put a shoulder on them, to keep them from being tightened too much and contacting the shaft.
Mike, did you ever get a chance to measure that flange on the back of the hammer that the drive pulley rides against? Thickness and diameter. Bruce, could you do the same? I need to know what to do back there to mount the drive pulley off the back. I hope that I don't have to grind off the little flange that I have on my hammer.
Mike, you are correct, I believe. The set screw into the bushing holds the bushing in place and keeps it from spinning which would block the oil hole to the main shaft. I see no reason at all why the set screw hole needs to go all the way to the main shaft, and, in fact, it appears dangerous for it to go all the way through, since the set screw could contact the main shaft, if it was over tightened. However, since it goes all the way to the main shaft, it could be used to get more lubricant to the main shaft, if someone wanted to take it out, lubricate, and put it back in. I am going to mark my set screws or put a shoulder on them, to keep them from being tightened too much and contacting the shaft.
Mike, did you ever get a chance to measure that flange on the back of the hammer that the drive pulley rides against? Thickness and diameter. Bruce, could you do the same? I need to know what to do back there to mount the drive pulley off the back. I hope that I don't have to grind off the little flange that I have on my hammer.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 162
Here is a fun picture. I took this picture of the screen of an inspection scope, while the scope was looking down inside the side hole of the anvil block. You are seeing the boards in the wood pallet that the hammer is sitting on. This clearly shows that the anvil block is hollow.
[/IMG]
Here is a picture of the space in front of my anvil block, after I dug out all of the crud. There is solid metal down there about 1.5 inches, however, and the anvil block will not budge.
[/IMG]
Here is a picture of the main shaft, with two burrs on it from the set screws that hold the drive pulley onto the main shaft. The burrs are just before the larger diameter of the shaft ends. That is where the drive pulley mounts. The other two screws in the drive pulley press directly on the key in the groove in the shaft, so they don't leave burrs. I assume these were some of the reason the shaft was so difficult to remove.
[/IMG]
The following is a picture of the porta power setup I used to press the main shaft out from behind.
[/IMG]
Here is a picture of the space in front of my anvil block, after I dug out all of the crud. There is solid metal down there about 1.5 inches, however, and the anvil block will not budge.
Here is a picture of the main shaft, with two burrs on it from the set screws that hold the drive pulley onto the main shaft. The burrs are just before the larger diameter of the shaft ends. That is where the drive pulley mounts. The other two screws in the drive pulley press directly on the key in the groove in the shaft, so they don't leave burrs. I assume these were some of the reason the shaft was so difficult to remove.
The following is a picture of the porta power setup I used to press the main shaft out from behind.