M390 VS ZDP-189 Rope Cutting - Informal testing

i certainly feel that cutting sisal on a board does give us an indication of certain aspects of various alloys. to totally assume that all this cutting does'nt give some idea of performance parameters is as erroneous as askance of abtracts containing all the knowledge of rockwell, bevels, polish, length & time of cuts ,--ad infinitum . in stead of demanding absolute controls on all variables may i request members do some cutting themselves instead of only criticizing what the tests do not show. i started cutting cardboard by the clock in 1977 & found most knives that would cut cardboard for 12 minutes & still scrape hair would definitely process 3 whitetail deer w/o a touchup of the edge. does this answer any queries as to absolute truisms ?. of course not but myself & our hunting buddies are still finding these parameters to work in the boonies on texas deer 30 yrs. later. so somethings are certainly learned by these informal cutting sessions. now i ask of members not criticisms but give us these methods & procedures to produce the truisms they so ardently champion. thanks.
dennis
 
Whatever gets me through the day without me having to muscle the blade through whatever I want to cut is good enough:thumbup:.
 
There have been some great points raised here. The facts are what they are. I think there is a tendency to defend one's self/work because no one appears to be making any covert efforts here and they all think they are performing unbiased tests.

One point I would make is that outside of CATRA everything is not really a "test" that would survive any sort of scientific review. I try to refer to everything I do as a "demonstration" because that is what it is. What Ankerson did is a demonstration...and perhaps many of us could duplicate the demonstration, but as pointed out some controls are lacking, and a lot of human element is involved in the cutting, the termination of the cuts, and even the sharpening (what is the standard for determining when the next grit should be used?...the eye?). I think it is a DAMN good demonstration though (it is practical and offers more control than I would use in my daily routine where the knife actually gets used).

I prefer sharpening free hand (similar to how I like hand made knives)...I think it is appealing on many levels...but lets make no mistake! For any sort of scientific testing this would be one of the first major areas of concern. I really doubt that the components that make up the steel are added by hand by a "master" that can "eyeball" it...WTF would anyone thing that "eyeballing" it by hand is an acceptable "test" for ranking the steel?

My point is this and other demonstrations are VERY valuable. Over time (and effort) we can perhaps eliminate some errors and variables, but the human element will likely always be present introducing variable that chisels away at reproducibility. Personally I do not care too much about that....because on one hand we have CATRA to eliminate the human element, and on the other we have real world demonstrations.

All good just different.

Edit to add. The way some of these criticisms are offered gets pretty old at times. It is like those threads regarding "favorite youtube reviewer" where some people say some mean spirited things...this stuff is free, if you do not like the test/demo/review, just move on, I think it is OK to question the reviewer/tester/demonstrator, but when it starts to appear as an attack, you show bad form...may be it is tact?, but why some people routinely engage in this behavior is puzzling to me. This community can benefit a lot more from cooperation.
 
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Noctis3880 said:
It would be nice if we could get a nice picture of the edges after the torture test and an opinion on what ultimately dulled the edge(abrasion, edge rolling, micro chipping). But this is all getting a little TOO scientific for my tastes:barf:.
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I try to keep it simple. :D :thumbup:
 
unit said:
The way some of these criticisms are offered gets pretty old at times. It is like those threads regarding "favorite youtube reviewer" where some people say some mean spirited things...this stuff is free, if you do not like the test/demo/review, just move on, I think it is OK to question the reviewer/tester/demonstrator, but when it starts to appear as an attack, you show bad form...may be it is tact?, but why some people routinely engage in this behavior is puzzling to me. This community can benefit a lot more from cooperation.
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well said :thumbup:

thanks Ankerson for the tests. I appreciate all tests done here by members and for the hard work and effort they put in it.
It's been an interesting thread with points well made by everyone.
I like the way Ankerson tries to do some real word usage testing and I like the way vasilli tries to eliminate all factors and wants to be critical to what is said and asking for objective results.

Good info here, and some good food for thought!
 
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I think all testing is good and sharing information is good.

We've been testing for many many years and we've found, that with knives at least, nothing is ever absolute. "True Science" is difficult with knives and cutting. We do the best we can.

I think that is some of the passion, because there are always some variables. Even with the CATRA. That's why we like to use any testing we can. "Real world" testing is required to come up with any conclusions.

Phil has come up with questions that the foundry metallurgists couldn't answer.

That's why it's valuable to be able to share information. At least to share as much as possible without seeming dogmatic.

We test so we can offer our customers exeptional materials, but ultimately it's the customers that will determine what we make. There are always pros and cons. The nice thing about performance testing, is that the products are actually getting used. Perforfmance products should be used. Otherwise, why put all of that money into materials and testing?

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
I think all testing is good and sharing information is good.

We've been testing for many many years and we've found, that with knives at least, nothing is ever absolute. "True Science" is difficult with knives and cutting. We do the best we can.

I think that is some of the passion, because there are always some variables. Even with the CATRA. That's why we like to use any testing we can. "Real world" testing is required to come up with any conclusions.

Phil has come up with questions that the foundry metallurgists couldn't answer.

That's why it's valuable to be able to share information. At least to share as much as possible without seeming dogmatic.

We test so we can offer our customers exeptional materials, but ultimately it's the customers that will determine what we make. There are always pros and cons. The nice thing about performance testing, is that the products are actually getting used. Perforfmance products should be used. Otherwise, why put all of that money into materials and testing?

sal
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Hi Sal,

I agree. :)

You do a great job offering great steels and always improving. :D

I am sure Phil could confuse those guys even more if he really wanted too. :D

If people don't really use the products how do they really know what they will and won't do?

That's whay I started shooting videos the way I do and do the testing, not perfect by any means, but I am doing something. :)
 
Ankerson said:
but I am doing something. :)
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Amen to that!

not only doing something, but it appears you are doing the best you can and constantly trying to improve. You are, without question, giving us more that we paid for! :D
 
unit said:
Amen to that!

not only doing something, but it appears you are doing the best you can and constantly trying to improve. You are, without question, giving us more that we paid for! :D
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I guess you could say that. :D :eek:
 
a big thanks to ankerson & the latest bunch of contributors. it's great to see some appreciation & positive comment on the work that is being performed.
dennis
 
Sal Glesser said:
I think all testing is good and sharing information is good.

We've been testing for many many years and we've found, that with knives at least, nothing is ever absolute. "True Science" is difficult with knives and cutting. We do the best we can.

I think that is some of the passion, because there are always some variables. Even with the CATRA. That's why we like to use any testing we can. "Real world" testing is required to come up with any conclusions.

Phil has come up with questions that the foundry metallurgists couldn't answer.

That's why it's valuable to be able to share information. At least to share as much as possible without seeming dogmatic.

We test so we can offer our customers exeptional materials, but ultimately it's the customers that will determine what we make. There are always pros and cons. The nice thing about performance testing, is that the products are actually getting used. Perforfmance products should be used. Otherwise, why put all of that money into materials and testing?

sal
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Bottom line is - you are not sharing your test results with us.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
unit said:
Amen to that!

not only doing something, but it appears you are doing the best you can and constantly trying to improve. You are, without question, giving us more that we paid for! :D
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Well, I have different opinion on that. Just based only on replacement of CPM S60V with CPM S30V which was IMHO big step back - see recently published CATRA results.

I rather do my own testing, thanks.

Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Well, I have different opinion on that. Just based only on replacement of CPM S60V with CPM S30V which was IMHO big step back - see recently published CATRA results.

I rather do my own testing, thanks.

Vassili.
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and your positive contributions are appreciated as usual.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Vassili,

I share as much as I can.

sal
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I know, as a salesman.

I am still under impression that for me it would be good to know that CPM S30V on CATRA was far behind steel which it replaced CPM S60V almost twice less.

However you seems to know better what is best for me...

At least you share with us that you do a lot of testing and that we will not see this results for our own good.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Come on guys lets keep it friendly in my thread. :)

Sal has addressed this more than once and he really can't share.
 
Just found this:

"At United® Cutlery We Have The Edge You Need™"

"Often imitated, but never exceeded, United Cutlery® strives to make our knives and swords to the highest standards in the industry, with superior value, quality, performance, great customer service, and prices that cannot be beat!"

http://www.unitedcutlery.com/Info.aspx?id=5

Superior value, quality and performance, highest standards! What else customer can wish for? Sounds just perfect! Can you imagine - they strive for us!

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Just got my own 710-1 in the mail today. I have to say, it's a really nice knife. Blade is perfectly centered, no scraping on the liners when opening. I noted a small line in the back spacer caused by the blade touching it, but it's no longer than half an inch and doesn't seem like it would dull the edge any. Aside from that, fit and finish seems to be great:thumbup:.

Sharpening was quick and easy on the paper wheels, and I finished with a hair popping edge. Definitely not quite as pretty as the edges done with an EdgePro, and I'd say the edge bevel is closer to about 20-25 degrees per side. Can't wait to bring this baby to work tomorrow.

Only thing is that the blade length really catches you off guard. It's about the same blade length as my ZT 0301, but the blade isn't as fat. But I get the impression that it will make easier cuts than my BM 755 MPR with a thinner blade.
nozh2002 said:
Just found this:

"At United® Cutlery We Have The Edge You Need™"

"Often imitated, but never exceeded, United Cutlery® strives to make our knives and swords to the highest standards in the industry, with superior value, quality, performance, great customer service, and prices that cannot be beat!"

http://www.unitedcutlery.com/Info.aspx?id=5

Superior value, quality and performance, highest standards! What else customer can wish for? Sounds just perfect! Can you imagine - they strive for us!

Thanks, Vassili.
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What's your point?

If the founder of a company personally communicates with his customers, I for one would be grateful for that as it isn't a common behavior even in other businesses.
 
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