M390 VS ZDP-189 Rope Cutting - Informal testing

I actually think that even though the grind looks a bit iffy, the edge angle is the same. The 710 is a saber grind, so when the recurve is removed, the straight section where the recurve will be will have more metal behind it. Thus, more metal has to be removed, so that's why we see that odd curving uneven bevel. I'm not sure if edge thickness is the same though.

I actually like the look of the sharpened thumbstuds. It seems they will be easier to operate. Pity about the studs getting in the way of sharpening, though.
 
I was more refering to the the way the edge looks from knife to knife, particularly the top and bottom knives. There's obviously more material removed on the top blade. But at closer look, the top blade looks like it's a more used knife and has been sharpened many times, leaving less blade and thicker stock at the edge bevel. So where it originally looked to me that the bevels weren't at the same angle, I suppose they could be and probably are.
 
But, of course grind is uneven - this is simple geometry, blade is bit thinner where re-curve was so edge shoulders is also thinner there, blade gets thicker to the handle - edge sholders got thicker as well. I am not sure why it is such a big deal.

I have no idea what you're saying or implying here.
 
I was more refering to the the way the edge looks from knife to knife, particularly the top and bottom knives. There's obviously more material removed on the top blade. But at closer look, the top blade looks like it's a more used knife and has been sharpened many times, leaving less blade and thicker stock at the edge bevel. So where it originally looked to me that the bevels weren't at the same angle, I suppose they could be and probably are.

Top blade Santa brought me Christmas 2003...

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So it is 7 years old.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Metal and cavier? You shoul know better than that...
 
I have no idea what you're saying or implying here.

Simple geometry. Where blade thickness is T edge shoulder width S with 30 degree angle would be:

S = T/sin(PI/12).

So edge shoulder width directly related to blade thickness.

Because re-curved grind, blade thickness among the new straight edge line is not even and get thicker to the handle and to the other side of re curve, in the center of the re-curve it is slightly thinner. As it was noted before edge shoulders just follows blade thickness and so wider at the former beginning of the re-curve thinner at the center and thicker again near handle.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
The million dollar question is:
Since I already have a BM 755 MPR in M390, should I fork over another $175 for a BM 710-01 with the same exact steel?

I feel like the ergonomics of the two must truly be polar opposites for me to shoot for that one.
 
Do you already have a 710 Noctis? If not I advise you get it, feel it out, then hang on to it for ten years and turn a massive profit :)

Actually, just the first two. If you like the ergos, then keep it, if not there are lotsa guys who will be willing to take it off your hands. Anyway the 710 is a large knife, while the MPR isn't.
 
Back to M390 testing. I got it, removed re-curve - it toke 30 minutes with new D8XX. Going to test it.

benchmade710-05.jpg


I hope it will perform well - Benchmade making beautiful high quality knives.

Thanks, Vassili.

Those thumbstuds look great! At what angle did you sharpen them?
 
Simple geometry. Where blade thickness is T edge shoulder width S with 30 degree angle would be:

S = T/sin(PI/12).

So edge shoulder width directly related to blade thickness.

Because re-curved grind, blade thickness among the new straight edge line is not even and get thicker to the handle and to the other side of re curve, in the center of the re-curve it is slightly thinner. As it was noted before edge shoulders just follows blade thickness and so wider at the former beginning of the re-curve thinner at the center and thicker again near handle.

Thanks, Vassili.

I could not possibly care any less until you show anyone that your grinds are absolutely the same. From what we have seen in the pictures, the edge grinds are a few degrees apart.

Stop feeding us any misleading information, we are looking for concrete proof. Until then, you're not only a hypocrite of your own words but also a source of misleading information.

This is the deal. You spoke about how Ankerson could improve his reviews by eliminating the wood as the backboard. Maybe you could do one to improve your reviews by changing something more important, the Edge Grind.

I will understand if you don't care or pay any attention to this, as you have shown yourself to us this way before.

Your grinds are completely off base with each other, your math gibberish has nothing to do with the difference between all three of your Benchmade 710 variants.

This is my user.
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Here is my 2nd 710-1 I just reprofiled to get it ready. :thumbup:

1st one is on it's way to Phil Wilson. :)

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I recieved my 1st of 2 new FFG ZDP Endura 4's today. :)

Still waiting on #2 and the 5/8" rope to get here.

Photos to compare my old one to the new.

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I could not possibly care any less until you show anyone that your grinds are absolutely the same. From what we have seen in the pictures, the edge grinds are a few degrees apart.

Stop feeding us any misleading information, we are looking for concrete proof. Until then, you're not only a hypocrite of your own words but also a source of misleading information.

This is the deal. You spoke about how Ankerson could improve his reviews by eliminating the wood as the backboard. Maybe you could do one to improve your reviews by changing something more important, the Edge Grind.

I will understand if you don't care or pay any attention to this, as you have shown yourself to us this way before.

Your grinds are completely off base with each other, your math gibberish has nothing to do with the difference between all three of your Benchmade 710 variants.

This is my user.
dsc07049x.jpg

I'm failing to see how you're determining that the edge angles are inconsistent. The top knife's edge bevel may be wider simply due to the fact that the blade is probably thicker at that point since it's been used.

The only other part of the photo that could indicate the angles are inconsistent are the thumbstuds since Vasilli grinds on them when grinding the edge angle. If the thumbstuds are of different heights, then so will the angle that the knife is being held at. Though it's not very clear in the picture, the thumbstuds look about the same, and having done enough similar trigonometry I can tell you that the variation in edge angles are probably no more than 1-2 if they vary at all.

For a knife that's 1" wide, a change in distance from the spine to the hone will result in a change of 1 degree per .020" of height change. However, since the height of the thumbstud does not increase or decrease in direct proportion to the distance between the spine and hone because of the angle, then measuring the knife's width should be done from the point of the thumbstud that makes contact with the hone. Assuming that is .750", then a change in the thumbstud's height of .015" would only throw off the angle by a little over 1 degree. It's really too hard to tell from the picture if the thumbstuds vary by that much, but I'm sure they do, and for that reason the angle is not going to be exact regardless.

Some trig stuff...

a = asin(d/w) * 180 / pi
a = The angle in degrees that the blade is behind held at in relation to the hone
d = distance from spine to hone surface
w = width of blade from spine to edge

I think if you're going to want "absolute" precise angles, then you shouldn't pay attention to any sharpening done outside of a jig. I don't know if anyone has any kind of information showing how much performance difference 1 degree has, but if we want things to be "exact", then the fact that the angle can be changed by .05-.07 degrees per .001" means that in human hands, you're not going to get an angle exactly right unless those human hands can hold the spine to a dimension and not vary it more than +/- .001". Considering that I don't think Vasilli's thumbstuds are within +/- .001" of each other, then there's inevitably some variance in his angles, but how much variance is acceptable?

All that being said, I'm glad Ankerson does his sharpening in a jig to remove all those variables, because I think trying to figure out how much a change in the angle changes performance would just make for even more tests necessary. I mean, is a .07 degree change in the angle going to effect cutting performance? Who can really say one way or the other for sure... If anything it would inevitably come back to subjective comparisons between edges of different angles in other tests that may not have been consistent, and we'd just be chasing ourselves around in circles in some kind of hopeless quest for absolute consistency.

Either way I don't see anything about Vasilli's blades that make me think their edges are too inconsistent to be tested. It might be helpful to match the width of the bevels on each one, but of course that simply begs the question of how much bevel width effects performance...
 
Great. Misunderstanding is interesting.

Kenny, if you've read from Page 1 and essentially every single comment Nozh has made, you will read that he is dissatisfied that the backboard(wood) being used by Ankerson is making his tests "unreliable".

Now if you look at Nozh's photos that he provided, you'll see that his grinds on each and every of his Benchmade 710 is different.
benchmade710-05.jpg


I was implying that, if he wants to be very precise about testing, he should use jigged device as you've suggested, such as the Edge Pro Apex or Pro Sharpener.

Easy to understand, no?
 
I do not know what else I can do. You totally miss my explanation, I not sure I can help here.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Great. Misunderstanding is interesting.

Kenny, if you've read from Page 1 and essentially every single comment Nozh has made, you will read that he is dissatisfied that the backboard(wood) being used by Ankerson is making his tests "unreliable".

Now if you look at Nozh's photos that he provided, you'll see that his grinds on each and every of his Benchmade 710 is different.
benchmade710-05.jpg


I was implying that, if he wants to be very precise about testing, he should use jigged device as you've suggested, such as the Edge Pro Apex or Pro Sharpener.

Easy to understand, no?

Okay, got ya. I thought you were implying that the edge angles were inconsistent by a measurable amount and that you could tell this by the photo. I get the whole, "Those are too uneven to live up to your own standards of precision," thing now.
 
The Rope came in today too. :thumbup:

Just waiting on the 2nd Endura 4 now and my other 710-1 to get back from Phil. :)

Photo of the knives and 1/2" and 5/8" rope, huge different between it, I will be cutting the 5/8" rope this time, got 200' of it so I know I will have enough.

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bevel width means nothing without knowing primary grind angle, as the two together determine the width of the edge bevel for any given sharpening angle. He sharpens on a 15 degree block, so the inconsistencies would be from an inability to hold the knife parallel to the ground. So that may be the case, but he is attempting a known and represented angle created by the jig. It also means his thumbstuds are sharpened at 15 degrees :D

This American Lawman is an example of looks being baseless. Factory edge, equal bevel width comparing side to side. Actually measured 30 degrees on one side, 12 on the other.


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