M390 VS ZDP-189 Rope Cutting - Informal testing

[hardheart]

I don't mean to criticize the testers for testing. I just mean that the tests are fairly limited in scope, and others tend to increase that scope unjustifiably. Plenty of us have said "Choose knife ABC over knife XYZ, it has the better steel." But, how often is that true? It may be true for us, but is it true for who we are advising? How much is better, based on what the person is actually going to do with the knife? Same with these tests. Vassili said it himself, his tests suit his needs. That doesn't mean he should be telling Sal to switch all production to XHP, though he did. Look at the difference in the numbers, are they enough to justify a total production switch? Are the other steels really that bad in this one measurement to overwhelm their advantages elsewhere?

Ankerson finding that M390 outcuts ZDP-189 does not mean someone should post "don't buy that ZDP knife with the lock, handle, blade shape, and price point you really want, something in M390 that you weren't even considering is much better." but someone will. Is ZDP-189 lacking when it can make 500+ cuts and still slice paper? But the comments happened with other steel/knife combos. I don't care if you like that Tidioute with 1095, get a Queen because D2 is better. Forget the Becker with 1095 crovan, get a Busse because it has Infi. We know the drill.

It isn't necessarily a bad thing, some just let their enthusiasm for a certain thing place undue weight on any supporting evidence. Most of the testers aren't doing it, and they don't need to stop testing. The recipients of the info just need to actually take a look at the tests and not just the conclusions.

 

[Ankerson]

I don't mean to criticize the testers for testing. I just mean that the tests are fairly limited in scope, and others tend to increase that scope unjustifiably. Plenty of us have said "Choose knife ABC over knife XYZ, it has the better steel." But, how often is that true? It may be true for us, but is it true for who we are advising? How much is better, based on what the person is actually going to do with the knife? Same with these tests. Vassili said it himself, his tests suit his needs. That doesn't mean he should be telling Sal to switch all production to XHP, though he did. Look at the difference in the numbers, are they enough to justify a total production switch? Are the other steels really that bad in this one measurement to overwhelm their advantages elsewhere?

Ankerson finding that M390 outcuts ZDP-189 does not mean someone should post "don't buy that ZDP knife with the lock, handle, blade shape, and price point you really want, something in M390 that you weren't even considering is much better." but someone will. Is ZDP-189 lacking when it can make 500+ cuts and still slice paper? But the comments happened with other steel/knife combos. I don't care if you like that Tidioute with 1095, get a Queen because D2 is better. Forget the Becker with 1095 crovan, get a Busse because it has Infi. We know the drill.

It isn't necessarily a bad thing, some just let their enthusiasm for a certain thing place undue weight on any supporting evidence. Most of the testers aren't doing it, and they don't need to stop testing. The recipients of the info just need to actually take a look at the tests and not just the conclusions.

I stated in the 1st post in this thread that I took the 2 top steels in my Cardboard testing and put them against each other cutting rope.

Both steels are excellent IMO.

 

[nozh2002]

I don't mean to criticize the testers for testing. I just mean that the tests are fairly limited in scope, and others tend to increase that scope unjustifiably. Plenty of us have said "Choose knife ABC over knife XYZ, it has the better steel." But, how often is that true? It may be true for us, but is it true for who we are advising? How much is better, based on what the person is actually going to do with the knife? Same with these tests. Vassili said it himself, his tests suit his needs. That doesn't mean he should be telling Sal to switch all production to XHP, though he did. Look at the difference in the numbers, are they enough to justify a total production switch? Are the other steels really that bad in this one measurement to overwhelm their advantages elsewhere?

Ankerson finding that M390 outcuts ZDP-189 does not mean someone should post "don't buy that ZDP knife with the lock, handle, blade shape, and price point you really want, something in M390 that you weren't even considering is much better." but someone will. Is ZDP-189 lacking when it can make 500+ cuts and still slice paper? But the comments happened with other steel/knife combos. I don't care if you like that Tidioute with 1095, get a Queen because D2 is better. Forget the Becker with 1095 crovan, get a Busse because it has Infi. We know the drill.

It isn't necessarily a bad thing, some just let their enthusiasm for a certain thing place undue weight on any supporting evidence. Most of the testers aren't doing it, and they don't need to stop testing. The recipients of the info just need to actually take a look at the tests and not just the conclusions.

I am not sure why if I find out that made in US Carpenter micro melted 440XP outperform ZDP-189 - with performance which Crucible can not come even close, I can not suggest knife industry to have a look and express my hope that this steel will be widely used by American knife industry.

Representing this as me telling Sal to do this or that - is chieldish simplification.

Again I just sad - this steel is super performer and made in US, well established production etc, etc. And my conclusion is that it will dominate market soon, once it will be noticed.

Now saying that this is kind of demand to switch - sorry, you misrepresent what I sad in a wrong way.

BTW, I would not suggest Sal anything, this company is over a hill and on rampage to lower their standard all over board, from fit and finish (uneven grind on Walker) and heat tretment (fiasco with Mule ZDP189) to warranty policies (now warranty is void if knife was disassembled, even if it failed for different reason). I lost all my respect to Spyderco and do not care about them at all. They may continue to produce knives out of H1 or CPM S30V - I just wish them good luck. If they get lucky with finding (I believe randomly) CTS-XHP and will not use it - I would be happy with that.

But I am sure that BM or Kershaw or Buck or some other company will deliver top quality knives with this steel in the nearest future. Hinderer already producing it... So

I believe that Crucible era is over.

And you may tell me I can not say this because you want me to test it 100 times - well sorry, but no. You did not help with this did not you? You did nothing youself, and until you pay some effort you are not in position to tell me what not to do, at least I will not listen, like I listen to Ankerson, and by his recommendation bought this knife did my own testing.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[xtestifyx]

I believe no one takes you seriously. What did you say again? I read and didn't understand a word. Oh it doesn't matter, because I don't care what your comments are.

 

[zyhano]

I am not sure why if I find out that made in US Carpenter micro melted 440XP outperform ZDP-189 - with performance which Crucible can not come even close, I can not suggest knife industry to have a look and express my hope that this steel will be widely used by American knife industry.

Representing this as me telling Sal to do this or that - is chieldish simplification.

Again I just sad - this steel is super performer and made in US, well established production etc, etc. And my conclusion is that it will dominate market soon, once it will be noticed.

Now saying that this is kind of demand to switch - sorry, you misrepresent what I sad in a wrong way.

BTW, I would not suggest Sal anything, this company is over a hill and on rampage to lower their standard all over board, from fit and finish (uneven grind on Walker) and heat tretment (fiasco with Mule ZDP189) to warranty policies (now warranty is void if knife was disassembled, even if it failed for different reason). I lost all my respect to Spyderco and do not care about them at all. They may continue to produce knives out of H1 or CPM S30V - I just wish them good luck. If they get lucky with finding (I believe randomly) CTS-XHP and will not use it - I would be happy with that.

But I am sure that BM or Kershaw or Buck or some other company will deliver top quality knives with this steel in the nearest future. Hinderer already producing it... So

I believe that Crucible era is over.

And you may tell me I can not say this because you want me to test it 100 times - well sorry, but no. You did not help with this did not you? You did nothing youself, and until you pay some effort you are not in position to tell me what not to do, at least I will not listen, like I listen to Ankerson, and by his recommendation bought this knife did my own testing.

Thanks, Vassili.

That you want the best from the manufacturers is clear. How you are going to get there not so.
The way you state your position is obviously perceived by some to be unpolite., thereby alienating the people that might be able to your goal of getting better knives and steels out ther, and testresults etc. If you can discuss things with them in a different way, you could definitely come closer to your goal.
To illustrate what i mean, take a look at this, in hope that we all might have a better quality discussion. http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/circle.htm

I am not taking sides, just observing things are misaligned in this discussion

 

[DennisStrickland]

hardheart solidifies some very valid considerations. if one alloy ca'nt cut rope as many times as the next alloy does that mean the 1st alloy is totally useless? i think this is an important perspective because we do'nt always need a 4000$ shotgun to shoot doves. thanks for an illuminating opinion.
dennis

 

[Ankerson]

hardheart solidifies some very valid considerations. if one alloy ca'nt cut rope as many times as the next alloy does that mean the 1st alloy is totally useless? i think this is an important perspective because we do'nt always need a 4000$ shotgun to shoot doves. thanks for an illuminating opinion.
dennis

I would hope that nobody is saying that.

 

[DennisStrickland]

i think that vassili may be elevating his opinions when he states market position of cutlery companies. also it's a lofty stance to predict future vectors of the american knife industry

 

[Ankerson]

i think that vassili may be elevating his opinions when he states market position of cutlery companies. also it's a lofty stance to predict future vectors of the american knife industry

I don't even go there...

I just enjoy and use what I got. :thumbup:

Your knife should be there today Dennis.

 

[DennisStrickland]

certainly i'm not slanting my comments of the high & lower alloys adversely in position to your testing jim. your latest efforts are some of the most interesting & informative to occur in a long time [good morning].
dennis

 

[Ankerson]

certainly i'm not slanting my comments of the high & lower alloys adversely in position to your testing jim. your latest efforts are some of the most interesting & informative to occur in a long time [good morning].
dennis

Good Morning Dennis.

My testing has been exhausting, cutting that much rope is a ton of work.

My tests while interesting aren't conclusive, they are just what I got and results may vary.

 

[Planterz]

Nozh, Spyderco spends a buttload of money, time, materials, and man hours doing their own testing for their own purposes. Sharing this information would be counter-productive; all their competitors would be in on it too. Coke doesn't share its secret formula, and KFC doesn't divulge itso secret herbs and spices. When Intel makes a breakthrough in processing technology, they don't call up AMD to discuss the details.

Comparing Sal to Hitler or Stalin or whomever you're implying just because he won't sate your petulent curiosities is way off base. If I were him I'd have told you to piss off ages ago. But he's a classier than gent I.

 

[JNewell]

*snip*

BTW, I would not suggest Sal anything, this company is over a hill and on rampage to lower their standard all over board, from fit and finish (uneven grind on Walker) and heat tretment (fiasco with Mule ZDP189) to warranty policies (now warranty is void if knife was disassembled, even if it failed for different reason). I lost all my respect to Spyderco and do not care about them at all. They may continue to produce knives out of H1 or CPM S30V - I just wish them good luck. If they get lucky with finding (I believe randomly) CTS-XHP and will not use it - I would be happy with that.

*snip*

I believe that Crucible era is over.

Thanks, Vassili.

i think that vassili may be elevating his opinions when he states market position of cutlery companies. also it's a lofty stance to predict future vectors of the american knife industry

I need to stop reading these posts over breakfast and go back to the newspaper. When food or coffee gets all over the newspaper, I simply toss it into the recycling bin.

 

[hardheart]

Vassili, you said Spyderco would lose business to the competition if they did not make extensive use of XHP, since the entire industry would switch to it. In this thread, you say that Spyderco is on a downward slide and you just don't care about them. You really don't see yourself as being demanding?

I wonder when Spyderco will randomly find CTS-XHP

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6987022&postcount=109

I guess after Sal is the first person to make you aware of its existence. I wonder when they will make a high performing knife out of it.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8077632&postcount=171

ah, ok.

 

[hardheart]

To get back closer to the topic, how does SOG 20CV compare to this M390? Larrin believes that they are the same steel because Latrobe does not have a PM plant and imports it. Carpenter's 204P is also the same alloy, so maybe we'll see some of that in production as well. Though I doubt using the same recipe from multiple sources will last long, as logistics will take over once it is shown if there is a quality difference between competing products.

 

[Ankerson]

To get back closer to the topic, how does SOG 20CV compare to this M390? Larrin believes that they are the same steel because Latrobe does not have a PM plant and imports it. Carpenter's 204P is also the same alloy, so maybe we'll see some of that in production as well. Though I doubt using the same recipe from multiple sources will last long, as logistics will take over once it is shown if there is a quality difference between competing products.

I think they would have to be treated to the same RC in the same blade and edge configuration to really have a good comparison.

Something like 3 Mules all at the same RC and tested to see if they really are the same or not.

Like 5 or 10 of each steel and tested on the machine then we could see what they really are.

I am not buying they are the same.

 

[hardheart]

Yeah, I was asking to see if you felt BM or SOG did a better job with this alloy, though SOG didn't do much with it. The Team Leader is a pretty nice looking blade though.

I don't mean Carpenter's 204P is made by Bohler, but that it is the same composition. Just like their PM M4 is still M4, the same composition as CPM-M4. Or that RWL34 and CPM154 are the same composition, but one is Erasteel and one is Crucible.

 

[Ankerson]

Yeah, I was asking to see if you felt BM or SOG did a better job with this alloy, though SOG didn't do much with it. The Team Leader is a pretty nice looking blade though.

Personally I feel that BM did a better job, but that's just an opinion and the steels are not really exactly the same.

I personally like M390 better, but as I said that's an opinion.

There are going to be differences in the steels if made by different foundries, there is just no way around that.

 

[sodak]

BTW, I would not suggest Sal anything, this company is over a hill and on rampage to lower their standard all over board, from fit and finish (uneven grind on Walker) and heat tretment (fiasco with Mule ZDP189) to warranty policies (now warranty is void if knife was disassembled, even if it failed for different reason). I lost all my respect to Spyderco and do not care about them at all. They may continue to produce knives out of H1 or CPM S30V - I just wish them good luck. If they get lucky with finding (I believe randomly) CTS-XHP and will not use it - I would be happy with that.


And you may tell me I can not say this because you want me to test it 100 times - well sorry, but no. You did not help with this did not you? You did nothing youself, and until you pay some effort you are not in position to tell me what not to do, at least I will not listen, like I listen to Ankerson, and by his recommendation bought this knife did my own testing.

Thanks, Vassili.

I gave you lots of information on my testing, you've never had a comment. If you care so little about Spyderco, then quit posting about their knives and childishly attacking them and Sal. We're all tired of it.

Your tests aren't the only ones out there, and many of us don't agree with your conclusions, nor do we care about your opinion, thanks to your attitude.

Sal has every right to withhold proprietary information from the public, and he certainly doesn't need to share it just because YOU say he should. Get over yourself. You might consider yourself the ultimate authority, but it's not a widely held belief, that's for sure.

 

[Ankerson]

I don't enjoy my thread being used as a tool to Attack Sal Glesser. :grumpy:

I will leave it at that.