M390 VS ZDP-189 Rope Cutting - Informal testing

Ankerson

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I just thought of this, Jim

Wouldn't it be a good idea to test non Super-steels as well just to grab an idea how much better some steels could do better? I'm thinking of normal 420, 440 series steels:D


I will test other steels on rope in the future for sure. :thumbup:

I have so many different things I want to do testing wise that it racks my brain sometimes. :eek:
 

Ankerson

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Well, I work in a produce department of a grocery store, and one of my tasks include trimming unnecessary parts of corn so that it looks more appealing, is easier to stack, and doesn't leave a mess all over the floor(customers will often husk the corn and leave a mess if you don't clean it beforehand).


I kinda figured that as I used to be in Store Management for a Major chain before I got cut so it makes since. :thumbup:
 

Sal Glesser

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Thanx Noctis,

Appreciate the input.

Hi Vassili,

Our results are for our own understanding. I don't feel like argueing with forumites or other manufacturers over our results. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Your kind understanding and patience is appreciated.

sal
 
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CATRA doesn't just test steel, everything about the knife edge influences the performance. Cliff liked to bring up how Buck got 420HC to outperform BG-42 with the Edge2K configuration. I think this is why the numbers don't get published, different test runs would not compare because the steels were treated differently and the edges sharpened differently as well.

Even with the Dozier test results I posted, where the same man ground the same profile, heat treated to the same hardness, and sharpened the blades, there was a difference of a few thousandths between the edges, and there was speculation on that influencing the results to some degree. If Sal was to release CATRA results, he'd have to send in test blades made from every cutlery steel in use, covering a range of hardnesses & edge profiles, and all details recorded just to satisfy us. And at the end of the day, the color of the G10/frn is going to have almost as much influence on most buyers as the steel used will have on the few of us who bother to care about such a thing.
 

tiguy7

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I'm probably showing my age, but the 1lb. coffee can filled with Lead discussed above was the old style can (which is wider than it is tall). The new cans wouldn't be very useful as they are too tall and skinny and have an inside lip.
 
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Well, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is pleased to hear that more S90V will be forthcoming from Spyderco. I carry my Manix and Military sprints in these steels on a regular basis and I can attest to the efficacy of this steel when slicing tough materials like bubble wrap and cling film. Laugh not, these everyday items do not succumb easily! :D

Jim, what about using a cutting mat instead of a wooden log as your backstop? This is an item custom designed for the job, after all. ;)
 
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Really? That's excellent!

Truly - see Sal's post below:

Hi Noctis,

CPM-S90V is among the best edge holders that we've tested, at least on CATRA. I think it's the many big vanadium carbides and the Crucible processing. S150V, then S125V, then S110V. Then ZDP and S90V are close despite their totally diffferent chemistry paths to get there. So I use them as kind of a goal.

M390 may prove to be exceptional and as you say, a good synthesis. Time and testing will tell.

We're still learning about ZDP as there is not much history in production pieces. We're planning more S90V.

I'm looking forward to releasing the M390 mule so we can get more "Real-world" testing on this new steel in a format that is similar to other pieces.

Some of the new steels from now available from Carpenter, Uddeholm, SandviK and others will be fun for steel-heads.

sal
 

nozh2002

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Thanx Noctis,

Appreciate the input.

Hi Vassili,

Our results are for our own understanding. I don't feel like argueing with forumites or other manufacturers over our results. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Your kind understanding and patience is appreciated.

sal

As I sad you can publish it, but you do not feel like to face whatever we do face with angry true believers.

As well we have to deal with our injured wrists and pay for rope and everything else.

In this case I do not think it is fair for you to make any reference to your hidden CATRA results, like saying that ZDP189 is same as CPM S90V. It is like showing little part of whole picture which may be misleading as any half trues. Do not you think?

For example ZDP-189 is close to CPM S90V, but it is like 9 other steel between them - 1095, CPM D2, CPM M4, X12MF, Roselly UHC, 52100 etc...
It is close but not same. As well as CTS-XHP is on top of it. So this way CPM S90V does not really look too exciting.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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As I sad you can publish it, but you do not feel like to face whatever we do face with angry true believers.

As well we have to deal with our injured wrists and pay for rope and everything else.

In this case I do not think it is fair for you to make any reference to your hidden CATRA results, like saying that ZDP189 is same as CPM S90V. It is like showing little part of whole picture which may be misleading as any half trues. Do not you think?

For example ZDP-189 is close to CPM S90V, but it is like 9 other steel between them - 1095, CPM D2, CPM M4, X12MF, Roselly UHC, 52100 etc...
It is close but not same. As well as CTS-XHP is on top of it. So this way CPM S90V does not really look too exciting.

Thanks, Vassili.
I'm guessing there might be legal and other issues regarding the publishing of CATRA results. But again, since you didn't seem to notice, these results were done with a specific type of heat treat and shouldn't be taken as absolute fact. More so, I would say that the HT used in testing and the final HT of the finished knife is completely different. And we should all know by now that a few points of difference in Rockwell hardness can make the same steel behave like entirely different steels.

I would personally only rely on CATRA to get a rough idea of wear resistance of each steel and that's it. I favor backyard testing and personal testimonials over it.
 

Sal Glesser

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Hi Vassili,

As I sad you can publish it, but you do not feel like to face whatever we do face with angry true believers.

We're all "true believers" even if we believe different truths.

As well we have to deal with our injured wrists and pay for rope and everything else.

My apologies.

In this case I do not think it is fair for you to make any reference to your hidden CATRA results, like saying that ZDP189 is same as CPM S90V. It is like showing little part of whole picture which may be misleading as any half trues. Do not you think?

My thoughts were that "groupings" of steels could give the novice a basis for comparison, according to our tests. I can stop making those comparisons if most would agree with you not to say them?

For example ZDP-189 is close to CPM S90V, but it is like 9 other steel between them - 1095, CPM D2, CPM M4, X12MF, Roselly UHC, 52100 etc...
It is close but not same. As well as CTS-XHP is on top of it. So this way CPM S90V does not really look too exciting.

Thanx for proving my point.

Our findings are not the same as yours. Do we now argue over your test vs ours? Your pressures vs our pressure? Your consistency over our consistency?

We try to very scientific. We keep records, we have controls, measurements, computers, repeatable tests with repeatable results. We use multiple samples.

We're trying to find out what will work the best for our customers. That's what our customers "trust" us to do. Salesmen aren't always the best source of information on their produts, so we have created our own abilities to make intelligent decisions on the performance of what we use and provide to our customers.

WE also use ojur findings to make sure that our vendors are consistent and accurate.

I share what information I believe I can without trying to "prove" my findings. I have "proven" to me what I need to know to serve my customers.

thanx, sal
 

Sal Glesser

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Hi Noctis,

I'm guessing there might be legal and other issues regarding the publishing of CATRA results. But again, since you didn't seem to notice, these results were done with a specific type of heat treat and shouldn't be taken as absolute fact. More so, I would say that the HT used in testing and the final HT of the finished knife is completely different. And we should all know by now that a few points of difference in Rockwell hardness can make the same steel behave like entirely different steels.

I would personally only rely on CATRA to get a rough idea of wear resistance of each steel and that's it. I favor backyard testing and personal testimonials over it.

We keep records of the Rc and the edge angle. We know that Rc makes a big difference as does edge angle. This is how we determine what Rc to use and at what angle to sharpen. We might test 10 mules at 10 different Rc, or edge angles. Then we build what works best.

The CATRA is an abrasive resistance test, that's what we use it for.

We've been making and using testing methods since we began making products back in the late 70's. We've built our own cutting machines, spring testers, breaking machines. That's how we know what to make for you that has given us the reputation that we have for consistently delivering high performance.

We're not real big on hype.

sal

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formites i believe it's prudent to assume vassili is suffering from personality disorders & we will excuse his rudeness due to apparent sickness. at least this is my opinion from his rantings. thanks
dennis
 

zyhano

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formites i believe it's prudent to assume vassili is suffering from personality disorders & we will excuse his rudeness due to apparent sickness. at least this is my opinion from his rantings. thanks
dennis

Please do not assume anything for me...
According to what I read posted by you earlier this thread, I feel you are being rude here and showing disdain in your post. Not necessary imo.

Now Vassilli can't write proper english if his life depended on it and that might be the reason he comes across as harsh. Maybe because I'm not a native speaker I have a better feeling for what he tries to say. He's not diplomatic by any means, but that's no reason to disturb a discussion by others or even try to put people against him.

We are all just people enjoying a discussion and some good ol testing...
You'd rather have we all sh-t up and only say "thank you" in each post?

Put him on your ignore list and move on please..
 
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Please do not assume anything for me...
According to what I read posted by you earlier this thread, I feel you are being rude here and showing disdain in your post. Not necessary imo.

Now Vassilli can't write proper english if his life depended on it and that might be the reason he comes across as harsh. Maybe because I'm not a native speaker I have a better feeling for what he tries to say. He's not diplomatic by any means, but that's no reason to disturb a discussion by others or even try to put people against him.

We are all just people enjoying a discussion and some good ol testing...
You'd rather have we all sh-t up and only say "thank you" in each post?

Put him on your ignore list and move on please..


that is absolutely untrue.

he can write and post in perfectly fluent english.

when it suits him.
 

zyhano

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that is absolutely untrue.

he can write and post in perfectly fluent english.

when it suits him.

Lol, oke, that might be true, I haven't been around that long here :)
Hey, a little controversy is a good thing sometimes right. Would be a dull place here otherwise :thumbup:
 
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as mentioned i said "in my opinion" all of us are allowed an opinion. i do'nt need to set members against vassili he does an excellent job by himself.
dennis
 
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