M390 VS ZDP-189 Rope Cutting - Informal testing

[MORIMOTOM]

Lol, oke, that might be true, I haven't been around that long here
Hey, a little controversy is a good thing sometimes right. Would be a dull place here otherwise :thumbup:

the vast majority of us here don't mind debate, even welcome it.

but vasilli's posts are condescending and insulting, all under the veil of a lack of fluency.

he's not dumb, by any means, don't get me wrong. but after several years of reading his posts it is pretty clear he thinks his ways are the only ways.


and to be fair, i used to think fluency was his problem as well. it is not.

 

[sodak]

We might test 10 mules at 10 different Rc, or edge angles. Then we build what works best.

Oh man, that's the very test I want to see!!!! I think that would be more interesting than comparing steels!!!! I'd want 5 different edge angles, for each of 10 rc's.

But it also might start a war or at least harsh words and bad feelings, not just on these forums, but between manufacturers, etc. I understand not wanting to disclose some of these...

I'd offer to sign a non-disclosure, but also know that when it's really good stuff I probably couldn't keep my big yap shut!

 

[Phil Wilson]

Sal, The idea that steels can be placed in categories has a lot of merit. The ones you mentioned, S90V, CPM S110v, CPM S125V and the like always group together if edge holding is the criteria and with other variables as close to the same as possible. CPM 10V leads the pack but is not stainless so would probably be in a different group with CPM M4 and others. Another group might be CPM S30V, ELMAX, M390, D2 CPM 154... others I am sure will be suggested. D2 is not a full stainless so might fall somewhere else but you get the idea. All of these have pros and cons with ease of heat treat work ability finish quality, availabliity and cost for example. Another group might be 154CM, ATS34, N690, VG10 and so on. Others will have differences and their own candidates but in my experience it would kind of fall like that. Given these categories one can then select the best steel for the application. The application varies with the critera. For example if i want a stainless hunter, used for field dressing, skinning, and light cutting use, no prying or chopping I would go with CPM S90V or CPM S110V. If edge holding is the overriding criteria then CPM 10V or maybe M4 would be the answer. The best solution for a fillet knife or kitchen knife where corrosion resistance comes into play might be CPM S30V, ELMAX, CPM 154.

You are making a concentrated effort with your research -- the mules and the like- to characterize pretty much all the available steels and so to then be able to concentrate on the best steel for the application. The mule idea is great since you get feed back from a wide range of users and that can be compared to your own work,, CATRA testing being only one of the tools. The mule information is wide ranging and public. Your hard won internal testing is yours to use as you wish, you own it. I understand that and I think most hear do also. I know some will go crazy on the rankings above but they are just examples and are based on what my knives from my shop do based on my testing. Others will rank differently but as hard as I try I can't make a D2 blade cut better or longer than a 10V blade. D2 is a great steel and even has some advantages over CPM 10V or K294 (the Bohler version) but it is back to the best steel for the application. Phil

 

[nozh2002]

Back to M390 testing. I got it, removed re-curve - it toke 30 minutes with new D8XX. Going to test it.

I hope it will perform well - Benchmade making beautiful high quality knives.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Gator97]

...Now Vassilli can't write proper english if his life depended on it and that might be the reason he comes across as harsh. Maybe because I'm not a native speaker I have a better feeling for what he tries to say.

Vassillii can't write proper English for last 10+ years I know him. Given the fact that he lives in US all that time, and has free access to internet, and works somewhere in US at the same time, it is unlikely his English didn't improve beyond what it is after all those years.
So, I do not believe he can't write proper English, not after all those years. Otherwise, he has been deliberately avoiding learning English, and I am not even sure how is that possible.

He's not diplomatic by any means, but that's no reason to disturb a discussion by others or even try to put people against him.

No, he's simply rude, and has no qualms interrupting or insulting anyone who disagrees with him.

BTW, he was kicked out from Russian forums as well, and I figure you don't think that was because his Russian wasn't fluent enough?

 

[xtestifyx]

Back to M390 testing. I got it, removed re-curve - it toke 30 minutes with new D8XX. Going to test it.

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/benchmade710-05.jpg

I hope it will perform well - Benchmade making beautiful high quality knives.

Thanks, Vassili.

What did you do to the thumbstuds? Are your knives equally as sharp?

Also, do they have the same edge angles and how do you know for certain?

 

[KennyB]

Back to M390 testing. I got it, removed re-curve - it toke 30 minutes with new D8XX. Going to test it.

I hope it will perform well - Benchmade making beautiful high quality knives.

Thanks, Vassili.

Well, hey, if you don't like it, get ahold of me if you want to sell the one in M390. I wanted to get one of them but didn't like the recurve and didn't want to spend the time recurving.

Not to throw the thread off track or anything...

 

[DennisStrickland]

well after all the fussing this thread did receive a ton of truly expert info. i guess even if we have to fight it's worth it when you get phil & sal to contribute. i understand ankerson is going to run another series of rope cutting so regardless if the blades are bouncing off wood or concrete remember all alloys are receiving equal treatment so i think we can assume the backstop variable to be minor.
dennis

 

[nozh2002]

What did you do to the thumbstuds? Are your knives equally as sharp?

Also, do they have the same edge angles and how do you know for certain?

There is testing thread:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589139

all those questions were addressed there.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. Thumbstuds stays on the way of sharpening stone and got sharpened...

 

[nozh2002]

Well, hey, if you don't like it, get ahold of me if you want to sell the one in M390. I wanted to get one of them but didn't like the recurve and didn't want to spend the time recurving.

Not to throw the thread off track or anything...

It take 30 minutes to remove re-curve with D8XX. You may unscrew thumbstuds before that if you want. I just do not want to do this every time I need to sharpen it. Get D8XX and you will be able to remove recurve or serration if you like.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Noctis3880]

Vassillii can't write proper English for last 10+ years I know him. Given the fact that he lives in US all that time, and has free access to internet, and works somewhere in US at the same time, it is unlikely his English didn't improve beyond what it is after all those years.
So, I do not believe he can't write proper English, not after all those years. Otherwise, he has been deliberately avoiding learning English, and I am not even sure how is that possible.

Clearly you haven't been to Chinatown.

 

[xtestifyx]

P.S. Thumbstuds stays on the way of sharpening stone and got sharpened...

That's a horrible excuse. You know you can remove them with a T6 driver...right?

 

[Gator97]

Clearly you haven't been to Chinatown.

They don't really read/post on the BF

 

[hardheart]

That's a horrible excuse. You know you can remove them with a T6 driver...right?

You may unscrew thumbstuds before that if you want. I just do not want to do this every time I need to sharpen it.

they would look better with the edges beveled and polished up a bit, but users are users.

 

[Tripton]

Back to M390 testing. I got it, removed re-curve - it toke 30 minutes with new D8XX. Going to test it.

I hope it will perform well - Benchmade making beautiful high quality knives.

Thanks, Vassili.

So the wavy, uneven, ugly edge grinds won't have any effect on testing?

It's clear from the photo that they are not identical.

 

[nozh2002]

Just finished testing. Results are in same place.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

there's been so much metal removed, i wonder what the thickness of the edge is at the shoulder.

surely that must affect testing.

and sharpening the thumbstuds may be the most non-sensical thing ive seen in a while.

 

[Planterz]

It take 30 minutes to remove re-curve with D8XX. You may unscrew thumbstuds before that if you want. I just do not want to do this every time I need to sharpen it. Get D8XX and you will be able to remove recurve or serration if you like.

Thanks, Vassili.

You could take them off and leave them off, you know...it's not like an AXIS lock is difficult to use without thumstuds. No wonder your grinds are uneven.

 

[nozh2002]

You could take them off and leave them off, you know...it's not like an AXIS lock is difficult to use without thumstuds. No wonder your grinds are uneven.

Thumstuds are better fit finger tip this way, actually. I smooth thumbstuds edges too of course (beveled) - on two previous knives you may see this on picture. On the last one - I rush to test it, but I will smooth it too.

But, of course grind is uneven - this is simple geometry, blade is bit thinner where re-curve was so edge shoulders is also thinner there, blade gets thicker to the handle - edge sholders got thicker as well. I am not sure why it is such a big deal.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Thumstuds are better fit finger tip this way, actually. I smooth thumbstuds edges too of course (beveled) - on two previous knives you may see this on picture. On the last one - I rush to test it, but I will smooth it too.

But, of course grind is uneven - this is simple geometry, blade is bit thinner where re-curve was so edge shoulders is also thinner there, blade gets thicker to the handle - edge sholders got thicker as well. I am not sure why it is such a big deal.
Thanks, Vassili.

from someone who preaches consistency in testing, this makes no sense at all.