Manix II CTS- XHP

Also blades in m4 are easier to get then a blade in xhp . I don't know why you would want to trade away a steel so many love that isn't easy to get . Just think you can now join in one of the hottest arguments going (how great is xhp really) for me its gggggggrrreat!
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I'd take CPM M4 if at RC 62 or higher over XHP any day. Several other steels too. The thing is that steels are different for everybody. People all have different likes, needs, proficiencies and qualifications amongst other variables. There can not be a "best" steel except for individuals in certain applications who have tried all other possibilities ( including different heats, geometries, final hardnesses, etc.) , eliminated them and only have very narrow application parameters.

Like a steel all day long and I doubt you will have anybody disagree. Proclaim a steel "best" and expect to be asked a bunch of questions. That's just the way it is.

XHP is a great steel but I personally like numerous steels more for my applications. CPM M4 is one of them. At Rc 62 and on up there are very few steels that have it's combination of attributes that I look for in knives. It has a great deal of wear resistance, easy to sharpen, takes great edges, etc. I don't think XHP comes close in wear resistance personally. It does sharpen easy though. I wopuldn't recommend giving up a M4 knife just to replace it with an XHP knife unless you are just curious, or need greater corrosion resistance than M4 provides.

Here's what one steel manufacturer charts knife steels at. Vassili might say it's part of the conspiracy but for those interested here's one bit of information about these steels and where they lay in relation to each other.
http://www.nsm-ny.com/?page_id=43
http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/datasheets/Blade_Steels.pdf
http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/datasheets/Knife_Steels.pdf

*Note that 14/4 steel is 154cm, and duratech 20cv is 390pm, 14/2/4 = S30V or close enough.
------------------------------------------------------------
Edge Retention (CATRA Test Relative to 440C)
GRADE %
CPM 20CV 180
14-2-4 CrMoV 145
14-4 CrMo 120
440C 100
The CATRA (Cutlery & Allied Trade Research Association) test
machine measures the total number of silica impregnated cards cut
in a sequence of passes along a blade. It is considered a relative
measure of edge retention and wear resistance. From Latrobe website
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recall CTS XHP is basically D2 with a couple extra percentage points of chrome. Very similar to CPM D2 in performance.
 
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That's a good question.

I haven't seen any info yet. Spyderco usually keeps steels in a sort of sweet spot. Not the hardest, or the softest. Pretty much just right for that steel. Hopefully Sal or Kristi will chime in eventually.
 
Mastiff. I have a lot of problems with the statement that xhp Is pretty much d2. My xhp blade greatly out preforms my d2 and its simply is not d2. If you want to get scientific about it then you can't make that statement. I don't care how similar they are they're not one in the same. I do want to get my hands on some 20cv now ,though
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi GeroldP,

CTS-XHP was formulated by Carpenter Steel to be a stainless D2. Early testing and one short run has proven the steel to be competitive in performance with other high carbon stainless steels.

There are some forumites that believe it is quite superior to most stainless steels on the market today.

sal
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if sal glesser doesn't try to discredit mine and others findings of this steel being grrreat why do you mastiff. Also key word there formulated not is exact copy .
 
The Mastiff said:
Like a steel all day long and I doubt you will have anybody disagree. Proclaim a steel "best" and expect to be asked a bunch of questions. That's just the way it is.
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spydusse said:
if sal glesser doesn't try to discredit mine and others findings of this steel being grrreat why do you mastiff. Also key word there formulated not is exact copy .
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Mastiff is not trying to discredit you, but your sample of 1(or 2 with nozh2000) is too statistically insignificant to weigh more than the physical properties dictated by the chemical composition of that particular steel.

Those with vastly more experience with knives and steel(I'm not one of them) have expressed their opinions and you have expressed yours. I would trust their knowledge and experience over yours, but on the other hand you may also be right in that CTS-XHP is the best in YOUR limited(to you and your use) application and your interpretation of edge retention.

You just cannot say it's a magic steel that performs leagues better than some other steels you mentioned. Your analogy about the bumblebee fails in that everyone can see a bumble bee fly but not everyone who uses CTS-XHP has the same experience as you.

Why don't you be happy that you have a perfect steel and knife for your applications without forcing that belief down the throats of people whose experience don't parallel yours?
 
Has anyone else noticed that in any thread about steel there is an inverse relationship between it's length and the amount of general consensus?
 
I just bought a Manix 2 CTS-XHP. In a couple days I should have it in hand. Very excited.
 
Mastiff. I have a lot of problems with the statement that xhp Is pretty much d2. My xhp blade greatly out preforms my d2 and its simply is not d2. If you want to get scientific about it then you can't make that statement. I don't care how similar they are they're not one in the same. I do want to get my hands on some 20cv now ,though
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Your having problems with it doesn't change any facts. It's a powder steel version of 440XH, which is stainless D2. It has a bit more chrome and is a powder steel. That about sums it up. Notice nowhere do I say it's a bad, poor, or inferior steel. Do you have any CPM D2 knives? Spyderco in particular? How do you like that? I do. I like Ingot D2 as well. You seem to like Vassili's results. Recall he has an ingot D2 knife outperforming XHP. His results, not mine. Do you have a problem with him?

You do see that Sal posted that it's a stainless D2. Is that any different from what I say?

Your problem with me apparently is that I don't agree it's the best performing steel. I don't believe in that concept. Steels are designed for applications. Having greater or lesser wear resistance doesn't in itself really make a steel better.Steels are a balance of wear resistance, corrosion resistance, and toughness. Those break down even further. There is abrasive and adhesive wear resistance. Some need to be wear resistant when extremely hot (" red heat" in the High speed steels) Other steels need to maintain wear resistance in a acidic environment. Some need high edge stability such as sushi knives. You may like a steel better as it fits your needs more but better to everybody else it isn't. If you work on a lobster boat you just may find H1 is "best".

I like my CTS XHP manix but I like the Gayle bradley in CPM M4 more. It suits me more. It doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong. We just have different needs. You won't convince me that XHP has greater wear resistance than CPM M4 though. It doesn't. Not comparing my bradley to my manix 2.

One of my favorite steels is Super Blue. It rusts, doesn't have near the wear resistance of M4, S90V, S110V, etc. It makes me happy though. I suppose if I didn't know any better I could say it's the best steel in the world. I know there's no such thing though

BTW, for years I used to work in greenhouses in Ohio. I likely cut a lot of the things you cut daily. I just used a 1095 knife. It did very well too.I worked on a farm. I worked construction building bridges. I worked on a steel prep gang on the railroad.I was in the army. I was LE for a while, then corrections. I've done part time jobs just about my whole career in everything from security to an aquarium store where I even installed ponds.Etc., Do you think all these jobs needed the same attributes in knives?
 
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nozh2002 said:
CTS-XHP beats both CPM M4 and CPM S90V. This is American ZDP-189.

Thanks, Vassili.
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Ah No, just no.......

It's a good steel, but it's not that good.

We will see what happens if Carpenter can ever produce it in quantities that the knife companies can use for a production model, same goes for 204P and 20CP.

A steel could be the best steel in the world, but if they can't make it or get it in sheets so the companies can use it what good is it, that goes for any steel.

Sofar all they have is air, and it's hard to make blades out of air.

Call Carpenter yourself and tell them you need 2,000 pounds of CTS-XHP in .160" and see what happens, that won't be a good phone call because they don't have it.

Thomas explained this to you more than once.
 
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I don't like when people put words in my mouth either. I never said I liked anyones test results more then another or anything of the sort. I respect vassilis test aswell as ankersons test aswell as my own real world use and I draw conclusion from the combination of all . To sit here and say using test results from years ago of d2 and saying its where xhp woukd preform is not very scientific.I am sure if a slight ht differental can change the preformance of a steel greatly I am positive a slight change in composition can change tthe preformance even mo
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Who is putting words in peoples mouths here? No where do I say better. I simply state you seem to like Vassili's work. You agree. What's the problem?

This statement confuses me.
To sit here and say using test results from years ago of d2 and saying its where xhp woukd preform is not very scientific.
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Who is doing that?

Do you mean my statement "Do you have any CPM D2 knives? Spyderco in particular? How do you like that? I do. I like Ingot D2 as well"? You are not making much sense here and getting emotional. For me, CPM D2 is still very much a "now" steel, and not something from years ago. I've got 2 manufacturers, about 7 knives in that steel. Now. Still. Not something in the past. Do you have any of them? I think it's a relevant question. You complain about something being "not very scientific." yet I sure don't see anything of yours that has even a little science to it. I was sticking to opinions except where I inserted manufacturers information on relative wear resistances. FYI though CPM D2 was and is an excellent performer just as you would think a Powder steel D2 would be. The performance is not all that different from Ingot D2, and stainless D2. You will get more difference in performance from the heat treat, final hardness and geometry of the blade with this family of steels than you will from the composition.

You have made statements about XHP having more wear resistance than S30V and CPM M4. Do you have any science to prove that? Don't demand science from someone who is offering opinions while refusing to provide any of your own science.

Spydusse, you are getting too emotional over nothing. What's the point in getting mad when others disagree with you on something subjective?

Joe
 
From my real world uses of the Manix 2 sprint, I found XHP sharpened up to a crisp edge easily, and held that edge for a little longer than Spyderco's S30V. The XHP was not leaps and bounds ahead, but seemed to hold up similarly while cutting cardboard, wood, and stuff like fish etc. It didn't seem that tough, as I got the edge to roll once just lightly poking around inside this ancient rifle's trigger mechanism. I think part of the reason I liked this XHP so much was because of the very thin grind Spyderco has on the FFG Manix 2s, not solely the steel.

Now stuff like Spyderco's CPM-M4 has proven to hold an edge longer and be much, much tougher in my experience. My M4 has cut lots of cardboard and rope, and been flung (accidently) into the floor and experienced less damaged even. Plus it seems that M4 keeps the initial hair whittling edge longer than any other steel I've used.
 
I was talking to the op . Incase you forgot he wanted to know thoughts about the xhp manix . Been cutting open trees from the farm all day and I can't tell a difference in sharpness from when I put it in my pocket this morning ,wich was hair popping sharp. I know where s30 would be at right now:thumbdn:
20110419_145021_278.jpg
 
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Going from my own personal experience XHP is a really good steel but nothing incredible. I've only owned one XHP knife but I've owned and heavily used more S30V knives than I can evern remember and XHP isn't all that much better than S30V as done by spyderco. Its takes a sharp edge easier and holds it longer than S30V but it was in my experience not very tough and much less rust resistant than S30V. I was really surprised to see it so high on Ankersons's steel ranking because while I knew it held an edge better than S30V I didn't know it held it that much better.
 
I'm not sure if it's supposed to be more rust resistant or not by my XHP manix developed rust/ dark spots much easier than my S30V manix.
 
Here's what Carpenter says about their XHP at this link. http://www.cartech.com/ssalloysprod.aspx?id=3710

Possesses corrosion resistance equivalent to Type 440C stainless but can attain a maximum hardness of 64 HRC, approaching that of D2 tool steel.
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440C is considered a true stainless, but it's nothing crazy when it comes to corrosion resistance. I believe it's neck and neck with stuff like 154CM and VG10 when it comes to corrosion.
 
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