MAP read this and stop complaining..

Im not sure I understand the thinking here. If the company has a minimum price they want the product sold for and then someone comes in and really lowballs it it hurts the end user more than anyone. If you pay MAP and then decide to sell the knife and it turns out a few retailers were selling it cheaper (by quite a bit) you are going to take a big hit. By standardizing the retail price it will help maintain your resale value as well. If the price is perceived to high to start with its not going to do well and the price will be adjusted accordingly. I have no experience in retail but its just how I see it.
 
When Benchmade did the MAP pricing thing I stopped buying their knives. They lost me as a consumer. I was set to buy a ZT 0562 before this, now I see the price went up for me $40 overnight. I'm not interested anymore and probably wont buy any knives any time soon now. They're just favoring small retailer dealers over their consumers. I'm speaking with my money by not spending it. These were likely the same dealers they had to cut off LEs from before they were selling 3 or 4 to each of their friends to flip online. At the end of the day, they're just doing something that's anti consumer. It doesn't matter what business sense it makes between them and their dealers, or how legal it is. We all know they're artificially inflating prices now. There's no increase in perceived value because we know they just caused artificial increases in price.
 
No one is really complaining being as this happened almost 10 months ago. Some people merely moved on to other knife brands.
 
Twindog said:
So much for the "stop complaining" part of this thread.

I think that we as a country have acquired a sense of entitlement to purchase products at prices made possible only by exploiting workers -- American and foreign -- and the environment.

Benchmade has to sell products in a highly competitive market. There are certainly more knives of more types and styles and sizes and steels than at any time in history. And many of these knives come extremely -- e x t r e m e l y -- cheap, only because someone else is paying for a major cost of production. There is no way in this marketplace that Benchmade can charge more than their knives are worth.

And how many schumcks go into a brick and mortar store to fondle and check out the knives, take advantage of the seller's expertise, and then leave to buy a knife at cheap internet prices from people who have little overhead and who benefit from the B&M store's presence, costs of selling and expertise. Lots. They brag about it on this forum all the time.

Benchmade is a great American company that has benefited the knife industry greatly. But whiners gotta whine.
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The only brick and mortar store around me that sells Benchmade knives is a big sporting goods store that charges full MSRP prices for everything. The only "knife" specific shop near me is 50 miles away in Richmond, not counting Knife Center which is based out of the city I live. That knife specific shop also operates online sales and they sell at prices that are actually competitive. If I lived there I'd probably buy all of my knives from them. If you're trying to compete against ecommerce, you're just fighting a losing battle.
 
The jury is definitely still out on whether MAP pricing is viable in the long run fr BM, ZT or anyone else. As others have pointed out, people ultimately speak loudest with their wallets.

There's no putting the e-commerce genie back in the bottle and if online retailers can survive and thrive with razor-thin margins (including selling some items at break-even or a loss), well, more power to them.
 
AntDog said:
. . . who DOESN'T go fondle in person, then buy for 40% less on the internet?
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I don't. If I'm going to fondle a dealer's inventory in person and I find a knife I like, I won't stiff the dealer by buying it for 40% less on the internet. I'll buy it from the dealer. There is, of course, a certain logic behind not doing what you're suggesting EVERYBODY does. If you do it long enough, the dealer and the dealer's inventory will be gone. And they'll be nothing left for you to fondle. Enlightened self-interest and a modicum of integrity would argue in favor of supporting dealers who make it possible for you to fondle their wares in person instead of expecting others to support them for you. But as you said, that's a whole 'nother, separate, disjointed can o' worms...
 
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skyhorse said:
^ :thumbup:
Stirring the pot.
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No not stirring anything. Just tired of seeing MAP referred to incorrectly and a bunch of folks constantly complaining. I tried to clarify what MAP was so it would be used in the right context. And still the complaining, I'm not complaining. I am used to inflation, been happening all my life. Beer used to be $5.99 a 24 pack, that same beer sells for $13.99 a 24 pack today. Who stopped buying beer? It is inflation get used to it, it will keep happening.
MAP is part of a pricing policy not a stand alone policy itself that affects pricing.
This is a forum so I can post just as much as anyone. Don't like it go away. But some we are how we are close to 90 posts, think this is my 4th.

BTW
Everyone thinks we (knife collectors, enthusiasts) really drive these companies' business. We don't. I see knives all day long carried by people who probably own just that one knife. We are not that important, we are just vocal. I doubt BM give a crap what we think, we are just a fraction of their business. Now considered it stirred.

Oh and meh? Really? Find a better expression it is pretty lame.
 
It has been explained to you multiple times that whatever you were trying to lecture us on isn't even the problem, it is merely the term that everyone is using since dealers notified us that BM will enforce MAP policies 8 months ago. It just stuck and everyone except you seem to know what everyone else is talking about when they use the term MAP on BM's here on the forums. So likewise, you can also stop whining about the perceived whining or at least get your arguments together to actually fit what people are actually talking about.

... Inflation is different from artificially raising a price by enforcing a minimum price that wasn't enforced before. A pack of beer can be a million bucks due to inflation, it is still not the same as a BM710 going from $111 on Knifeworks then now $156 overnight. THAT is what happened. As soon as you figure that out, the better your are off because you are coming off as completely off base explaining MAP for no reason as everyone knows what it is... Maybe you can urge us to come up with a better term when talking about the artificial increase instead of calling it simply MAP. That would help you since you're the only one who doesn't know what it means when anyone on the forum says it.
 
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bld522 said:
I don't. If I'm going to fondle a dealer's inventory in person and I find a knife I like, I won't stiff the dealer by buying it for 40% less on the internet. I'll buy it from the dealer. There is, of course, a certain logic behind not doing what you're suggesting EVERYBODY does. If you do it long enough, the dealer and the dealer's inventory will be gone. And they'll be nothing left for you to fondle. Enlightened self-interest and a modicum of integrity would argue in favor of supporting dealers who make it possible for you to fondle their wares in person instead of expecting others to support them for you. But as you said, that's a whole 'nother, separate, disjointed can o' worms...
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I have to agree with this. The last knife I handled before buying went home with me. I was at a local gun shop, stopped in to see if they have any ammo and parts for a shotgun I was modding at the time. I saw in the case of knives, an Emerson! I went over and the guy came over and asked if I wanted to see anything.
I said, the Emerson knife please.
He brought it out and I looked it over. I handed it back to him, and I looked at a Case Butterbean and one other knife.
I said, I will take the Emerson knife please, and I will also take these other items.
He replied, "Yes Sir, you got it!"
Shopping local is a great thing, seems to be going the way of manners, coffee percolators, politeness, and durable electrodomestic products. While my purchase was not responsible for paying every employees wages, their rent, 401K, or health insurance premiums. It did make a difference to that store owner, th clerk appreciated being able to do his job of helping a customer select an item and acquire the sale.
As I left the store, I looked back and thanked the guy that helped me and wished him a good day.


Billy, what gives you the impression that people that buy and collect all kinds of expensive knives don't know what MAP pricing is? I'd argue thwt a lot of people thwt have been here more than a minute know exactly what it is. In fact, there are several dozen threads and hundreds of posts referencing exactly what it is.
 
billym said:
No not stirring anything. Just tired of seeing MAP referred to incorrectly and a bunch of folks constantly complaining. I tried to clarify what MAP was so it would be used in the right context. And still the complaining, I'm not complaining. I am used to inflation, been happening all my life. Beer used to be $5.99 a 24 pack, that same beer sells for $13.99 a 24 pack today. Who stopped buying beer? It is inflation get used to it, it will keep happening.
MAP is part of a pricing policy not a stand alone policy itself that affects pricing.
This is a forum so I can post just as much as anyone. Don't like it go away. But some we are how we are close to 90 posts, think this is my 4th.

BTW
Everyone thinks we (knife collectors, enthusiasts) really drive these companies' business. We don't. I see knives all day long carried by people who probably own just that one knife. We are not that important, we are just vocal. I doubt BM give a crap what we think, we are just a fraction of their business. Now considered it stirred.

Oh and meh? Really? Find a better expression it is pretty lame.
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You still dont get it. You cant lecture people on something you dont understand. Map or whatever BM is doing has nothing to do with inflation or beer. So yeah, you can post whatever you want but if it is lame be prepaid for people to say meh.

Meh.
 
AntDog said:
You have a point schmuck.... (who DOESN'T go fondle in person, then buy for 40% less on the internet?! I'm all for supporting mom and pop shops, but I'm not paying $85 for a $40 knife. Plus - I don't need the shop owner's "expertise". I just want to see the knife in person. Ahh, but that's a whole 'nother, separate, disjointed can o' worms...)

"There is no way in this marketplace that Benchmade can charge more than their knives are worth."

I disagree. They do it every day.
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Agreed on both points.
 
Twindog said:
So much for the "stop complaining" part of this thread.

I think that we as a country have acquired a sense of entitlement to purchase products at prices made possible only by exploiting workers -- American and foreign -- and the environment.

Benchmade has to sell products in a highly competitive market. There are certainly more knives of more types and styles and sizes and steels than at any time in history. And many of these knives come extremely -- e x t r e m e l y -- cheap, only because someone else is paying for a major cost of production. There is no way in this marketplace that Benchmade can charge more than their knives are worth.

And how many schumcks go into a brick and mortar store to fondle and check out the knives, take advantage of the seller's expertise, and then leave to buy a knife at cheap internet prices from people who have little overhead and who benefit from the B&M store's presence, costs of selling and expertise. Lots. They brag about it on this forum all the time.

Benchmade is a great American company that has benefited the knife industry greatly. But whiners gotta whine.
Click to expand...

That may be true to an extent, but that doesn't entitle Benchmade to arbitrarily inflate their prices on a whim either, no matter their contributions to the industry.
 
If RevDevil thinks Ganzo is garbage, I have to believe he doesn't have one. I have heard the same BS about Japanese knives many years ago, Taiwan knives not too long ago, Sanrenmu and the like recently; the fact is that they make some pretty good knives. My Ganzo axis type lock G704 is rock solid and, in my opinion, a MUCH better value (not knife) than my comparable Benchmade for about 6x the price. I'm not advocating a given brand and I do buy American most of the time (because I am one, remember, many on this forum are not) but am trying to sound a warning that if policies like Benchmades' are tolerated they will spread (please see ZT MAP thread). There ARE other options.
 
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katanas said:
If RevDevil thinks Ganzo is garbage, I have to believe he doesn't have one. I have heard the same BS about Japanese knives many years ago, Taiwan knives not too long ago, Sanrenmu and the like recently; the fact is that they make some pretty good knives. My Ganzo axis type lock G704 is rock solid and, in my opinion, a MUCH better value (not knife) than my comparable Benchmade for about 6x the price. I'm not advocating a given brand and I do buy American most of the time (because I am one, remember, many on this forum are not) but am trying to sound a warning that if policies like Benchmades' are tolerated they will spread (please see ZT MAP thread). There ARE other options.
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If I don't like what BM's doing I just won't play ball with them. Whether I like it or not, it's their company and they can run it how they want.

Buying a straight-up unlicensed copy of one of their knives is, in my mind, not an appropriate or justified response. That's a whole different issue. And you said yourself that it still wasn't as good a knife as a BM. I don't have time or money to waste on a POS.

I can find other brands to buy from but that doesn't mean I need to spit in BM's face.



For those not familiar, the Ganzo G704 is a complete Chinese copy of the Benchmade HK14205.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...G704-The-Little-POS-That-Could-(lots-of-pics)
 
If you like your Benchmade but not the prices try a Benchmade H&K. For instance, my HK 14715BK with a 3.67" blade of D2, Axis lock and G-10 scales cost me $93 shipped just last week. That's a heck of a deal when you consider that the Rift 950BK is $178.50 for a 3.67" blade of 154CM, Axis lock and G-10 scales. Both are made in the U.S.
 
Skywalker31, it appears the HK14205 is discontinued. Unless you are a patent lawyer, and can certify differently, I believe it is now public domain. I also believe the Ganzo axis lock is sufficiently different to negate infringement. Calling a knife with more than a few positive reviews a POS is, at best, disingenuous. As for spitting in BMs face, I have NO idea where you got that. I like the product but, like MANY others, dislike their latest business practice; it WILL spread and that is the insidious aspect. I merely wished to point out that there are other options, as you mentioned but did not give examples, which is not overly helpful.
 
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So Benchmade made a pretty bold move w that. I see it like this, I do like to get my knives for the cheapest possible price like anyone else. While I may not be able to buy a benchmade as easily I still can appreciate them trying to support brick and mortar stores.

Also, IMO they do have a one of a kind product w the axis lock and make some fantastic knives. I don't think I can swear them off that easily. But damn are they expensive.
 
katanas said:
Skywalker31, it appears the HK14205 is discontinued. Unless you are a copyright lawyer, and can certify differently, I believe it is now public domain. I also believe the Ganzo axis lock is sufficiently different to negate infringement. Calling a knife with more than a few positive reviews a POS is, at best, disingenuous. As for spitting in BMs face, I have NO idea where you got that. I like the product but, like MANY others, dislike their latest business practice; it WILL spread and that is the insidious aspect. I merely wished to point out that there are other options, as you mentioned but did not give examples, which is not overly helpful.
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First, just because the designer is not producing the knife does not mean that it becomes public domain. Here's the relevant part of the US code; SS 1301 covers designs protected and SS 1305 defines the period of protection as 10 years. http://copyright.gov/title17/92chap13.html
The 14205 came out in 2007; it is still protected.

Second, those axis lock internals look pretty darn similar to Benchmade's to me: http://edcgear.ru/knives/zatochka/ganzo-g704-razborka-kosyaki-axis-lock.html (apologies for the Russian; those were the clearest pics I found with a quick search). I don't know how that's different enough to not constitute any sort of infringement.

Finally, we apparently have different views of unlicensed ripoffs of original designs. I don't see how supporting them can be anything but insulting to the original designer, but this has been a rather contentious topic on this forum in the past.

I don't like the new pricing increases either. Many of the models aren't what I consider a good value anymore (though there are a few exceptions to that, mainly in limited runs). So I've mostly stopped buying new Benchmades - and shifted my purchasing to other companies doing their own original, innovative design work and backing that up with solid build quality and a good warranty.


Edit: Sorry, just noticed that last bit about giving other alternative examples. Spyderco is the first that comes to mind; while some of their models are not such a great deal anymore (especially some of the Japanese-made ones) others very much are. The Paramilitary2, Manix2, and Native5 are all excellent mid-size folders from the US, while the Gayle Bradley folder from Taiwan is an excellent hard worker.

Upper-end Kershaws honestly stop right where lower-end BMs start in my mind, but the Knockout, Piston, and S30V or Elmax versions of the Blur are all well-made and capable. I don't have much experience with ZT as they're larger than what I really like to carry (likewise, I couldn't make myself hold onto a BM 520BK-1101 and have never owned a 950, 810, or 275). If you're fine with bulkier designs, they should be considered. (I do have an 0801BRWCF and it is quite impressive, if a poor cutter.)

Other companies might include LionSteel, Hogue, and Mcusta, depending on what kind of knife you're looking for.

Also, I don't want to suggest that I think all BMs are a poor deal now; I think the M390 581/586 and CPM M4 810 are still sensible purchases compared to the rest of the market even at their increased prices.

To be completely honest I've been carrying a 586 that I picked up right before the price increase for a while now, and I've been more content with that than anything else I've found in a long while.
 
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