Met One Seriously Underprepared Walker

[jca21]

hold piss before going out. *check*

 

[Fonly]

SI guess it just burns my ass that people dont think they are potentially putting me at risk when s@#$t happens.

Thats the thing, pig headed people drive me nuts. And when they think they can go do every thing, I got a family, friends, and a half decent life, people who not only put them selves at risk, and life threatening situations because they "feel as though I have to do this" also usually end up putting a someones life like MINE at risk as well, that I have to say pisses me off.

 

[skammer]

Thats the thing, pig headed people drive me nuts. And when they think they can go do every thing, I got a family, friends, and a half decent life, people who not only put them selves at risk, and life threatening situations because they "feel as though I have to do this" also usually end up putting a someones life like MINE at risk as well, that I have to say pisses me off.

This is why I am a fan of charging for services depending on situation. If its ignorance or just negligent they should pay.

As it is now when I see a subjects family or the subject themselves I tactfully remind them with a serious face the team accepts personal donations. Oh and by the way "you are welcome" if we are not thanked.

It amazes me how many people think we get paid for this, blows my mind.

Skam

 

[Fonly]

This is why I am a fan of charging for services depending on situation. If its ignorance or just negligent they should pay.

As it is now when I see a subjects family or the subject themselves I tactfully remind them with a serious face the team accepts personal donations. Oh and by the way "you are welcome" if we are not thanked.

It amazes me how many people think we get paid for this, blows my mind.

Skam

I know, we started a thing here, we send out a letter a few days after a successful search is done, only on the ones where if it were our way, we would charge them. The letter entails what we spent, and cost of man hours, everything.

I can tell you one thing, we get some pretty pissed people, but on the other it opens up the eyes of a lot of people. It really greaves me to see people who think WE'RE obligated to come out and rescue their ass.

 

[Fonly]

One other thing too, I hear things like "if we start charging people for us to come out, they wont call for help"

That to me is crap, if someone needs help, they aren't going to care about calling, and if anything it will make them double think where, and when they are going. I hope some people don't go out because of fear they will be charged, it would make space for people who can handle them self, keep the folks who should be in parks, IN PARKS.

 

[skammer]

One other thing too, I hear things like "if we start charging people for us to come out, they wont call for help"

That to me is crap, if someone needs help, they aren't going to care about calling, and if anything it will make them double think where, and when they are going. I hope some people don't go out because of fear they will be charged, it would make space for people who can handle them self, keep the folks who should be in parks, IN PARKS.

They will call no worries about that. I'd like to see GPS deactivated personally. If you can navigate with map and compass you deserve to be there. They only thing I use GPS for is calling in my position thats it. All SAR nav is done via map and compass. My team at least. We dont even touch on GPS for all our training its a small separate non mandatory course in our ciriculum as any idiot can figure it out.

Skam

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Question for the SAR guys.

Something's really been burning in my head.

I always hear "Taking too much weight makes it very likely that you'll need to call for help because you'll turn a knee or ankle, etc." Tjhis is often referenced with a number like 80 pounds, but then they go on and say that 25 is far too much, anything over 15 is pushing it, etc.

So, my question is: How often do you get calls from truly prepared people (or on their behalf), versus people who simply aren't prepared enough? And of those that are prepared, how many times is their problem directly related to the weigth they are carrying?

Personally, I hear of very few (but some) cases of a SAR being called and the person is prepared, but by and large, it's almost always an unprepared person. My guess is that what constitutes a SAR call for the unprepared, constitutes an impromptu camping trip and getting bitched at by the wife for the prepared person.

 

[batosai117]

Personally, I hear of very few (but some) cases of a SAR being called and the person is prepared, but by and large, it's almost always an unprepared person. My guess is that what constitutes a SAR call for the unprepared, constitutes an impromptu camping trip and getting bitched at by the wife for the prepared person.

That's the part where most of us would hope something is wrong, otherwise the ass chewing from the Mrs. might be worse than the injury :foot:

 

[Runsalone]

Geez, alot of hostility on this board since Ive been away......

 

[Runsalone]

I guess if we are to make broad based assumptions about "ultra-lighters" some could conceivably be made about "sar types" to....eh?

Cant we all agree that there are as many ways and styles to enjoy the outdoors as there are people who enjoy them? Occasionally trouble happens and folks need help. Mother nature has been killing people by surprise and against their wishes for...well.....ever. Trained and untrained alike. It is the nature of the beast, that we all must accept to some extent, to do whatever it is that we do.

And of course a certain amount of skill and understanding what gear is needed comes along with what we do, and of course some go out unprepared but the chest beating and negative energy towards any particular "group " on THIS board always surprises me.

After all who would be reading this portion of bladeforums without already having a mindset geared toward preparation? "Ultralighters" and "heavies" and whatever....

And now i shall go back into the "non-posting" cavern from whence I came.

 

[skammer]

It is the nature of the beast, that we all must accept to some extent, to do whatever it is that we do.

And of course a certain amount of skill and understanding what gear is needed comes along with what we do, and of course some go out unprepared but the chest beating and negative energy towards any particular "group " on THIS board always surprises me.

Runs,

Theres only my opinions on an issue that puts me at risk. There are tried and true emergencies of happenstance but that is not the issue. The issue is when people of any outdoor group on any board foolishly meaning to or not get themselves into trouble without realizing the consequences to me or my colleagues.

I dont pick on any group just try and relate the experience from the other side of the coin, people will do what they will do and Darwin or Murphy will sortem out in the end.
I have no problem with lightweight anything, hell I dabble in it myself, the problem lies in the light OR heavyweight "INCOMPLETE" load and preparation.

My 8-10 lb load of gear covers me for a day hike but dont proclaim to me a 2 lb fanny pack including a pint of water is ok for a 20 mile summer hike in the mountains with no water sources available, my bear spray alone is 1lb.

When I lead a team of rescuers on a sortie I check their gear personally and these are trained individuals. I dont want them to become a liability to me or others, its that serious.

Chalking this up to "nature of the beast" and we all choose our risk level doesn't factor in the people risking their neck to save ones ass after the fact.

Eg: I cringe when I see people daring mother nature during a hurricane on the oceans edge, not for the dummies doing the deed but for the rescue crew who inevitably will go in after them.

Or case in point an inexperienced ice climber who gets stuck on a vertical wall in a blizzard and now that rescue crew has to put themselves at huge risk to get them down etc etc...

"of course a certain amount of skill and understanding what gear is needed comes along with what we do"

Of course it should but many times it does not happen. Of course nothing is guaranteed prepared or not but its about hedging bets. Until you have seen the other side its easy to point the negativity finger.

Maybe some need to face the parents and media as you haul out a body bag full of 15 yr old daughter who died of hypothermia (whose face was fed on by animals) in mid summer because it rained that night, no gear to speak of. Then face the media who proclaim "FAILED" to reach her in time".

Sounds like some armchair experts here need to give a little back and get their ass in the grass like the rest of us. Good chance to teach, learn and share experiences while getting outside.:thumbup:

"THIS board always surprises me"

After what I have seen nothing surprises me.

Apologies if I offending anyone :foot:

Skam

 

[skammer]

Question for the SAR guys.

Something's really been burning in my head.

I always hear "Taking too much weight makes it very likely that you'll need to call for help because you'll turn a knee or ankle, etc." Tjhis is often referenced with a number like 80 pounds, but then they go on and say that 25 is far too much, anything over 15 is pushing it, etc.

So, my question is: How often do you get calls from truly prepared people (or on their behalf), versus people who simply aren't prepared enough? And of those that are prepared, how many times is their problem directly related to the weigth they are carrying?

Personally, I hear of very few (but some) cases of a SAR being called and the person is prepared, but by and large, it's almost always an unprepared person. My guess is that what constitutes a SAR call for the unprepared, constitutes an impromptu camping trip and getting bitched at by the wife for the prepared person.

CPL,

Background:

First off I will say that the teams I have been on do not specifically reconcile stats of who was prepared or if it was directly related to the incident or issue.
WE do however take mental note on root causes and major contributing factors. Search management notes are taken on subject condition and gear they had with them, what they did or did not do to help themselves are all part of the documentation process and are legal documents to be used in court at a later date if need be. These notes are official observations made by team leaders and the authority body in charge of the search.
These learnings drive some of our public and SAR training curriculum.

When we get called 2 sets of interviews take place. The police conduct their interview and then we SAR interview any witnesses or family etc... The reason for this is the public will tell us much more than they will the police if the interviewer is skilled. Its a fear of cop thing. In this interview we gather as much info about the subject as possible ie; complete description, mental status, meds, medical conditions, personal history, skill sets, circumstances, equipment, experience, possible routes/location etc.... From this we create a profile of the subject and plug in the variables into a model which will help determine the highest "probability of area". This in turn drives the areas in which to send the teams.

Gear weight:

Interesting topic but seriously its a bit complicated. Yes, more weight on the joints increases risk. BUT.. some reasons this is a factor is people want to wear light weight footwear that cant support increased weight on the skeletal structure. Fitness is another issue with reducing load weight, hiking is just plain hard for many people, at some point people have to realize its beyond their risk tolerance. "Know their limits"

There is a trade off lighter footwear increases risk of foot injury there is no argument there, good boots properly used you will break your leg before your ankle not so with cheap boots or trail shoes. Heavy weight loads increases falls (balance), back and shoulder risk assuming you have decent well fitting and broken in boots on. The pros and cons go back and forth and money comes into play. With a decent bank roll you can buy quality gear that weighs a fraction of cheaper gear, I say fine so long as the load is complete. I have some featherweight gear myself but it performs as good or better than cheaper versions or I dont use it for the sake of saving weight.

"MY" take, again "MYYY" take on this is there is a happy medium. Sure there was a time I humped 100 lb loads 15-20 miles a day in the military, but I am not 19 anymore and I have no need to carry weapons ammo and explosives.
On the other hand I dont want to put other people at risk by doing the outback with a snickers bar and a cell phone either. I spent most of my adult life wearing webbing and packs of some kind so a 35lb SAR load is comfortable to me under most conditions. A sub 10lb load on off time feels like I am naked. This is where fitness comes into play and knowing your limits.


Prepared:

Off the top of my head I would say 40% or more of our callouts can be directly linked to ill preparedness to some extent. My definition of ill prepared is "someone who didnt have or didnt know how to use equipment or knowledge that would have averted a call to rescue" So barring unforeseen injury or circumstance ie (murphy factor), suicide, children or the mentally challenged that includes everyone.

Examples:

Hunter gets lost = cant navigate or no nav gear, not prepared.

Hiker is overcome with heat exhaustion = not fit, no enough water, not prepared

Geocacher injured in dense brush has nav gear, builds a simple shelter and small fire but cant gather wood or signal searchers, dies of hypothermia and dehydration 4 days later = some gear, no signalling gear, no extra clothes or water, not prepared

Hiker in diabetic shock = no food, not checking sugar levels, no test kit, not prepared

Camper goes anaphylactic and dies = only one 15 minute dose of epi 10 miles from a road (should of had 4 doses minimum and antihistamines) not prepared.

Hiker gets caught in summer storm with shorts t-shirt and running shoes, has a compass map and cell phone, builds a shelter but dies of hypothermia anyway = not enough gear, cant get fire going in storm, no clothing, not prepared.

Hiker gets mauled by bear = has some gear but no bear spray or bear training, not prepared.

Surveyor gets injured, picked up 14 hrs later = has radio and spot locator enough water and gear to get through the night, prepared.

Sometimes being prepared doesn't mean that SAR wont be called it means when we do find you, you are still breathing. Having the right stuff is not just about knowledge and how to use it but utilizing tools that can hedge the bet in your favor.

Not having a cell phone in deep winter "may" not be as important as having skills and gear enough to get you through the night till we get to you. It all works in tandem in stacking your deck. eg: Having a broken leg can kill you in the wrong environment as it limits mobility and what you can produce to save yourself. Having extra clothes and an easy shelter with little effort could make the difference. Gear can and does matter.

The stats on lost people and whether or not equipment or skills might have made a difference is skewed because close calls are never tracked. There is a whole recent thread on mistakes in this forum which many examples are potential SAR calls or fatalities if gear and knowledge were not employed.

The single biggest factor in outcome is letting a RESPONSIBLE someone know exactly where you are going and when you will return. We need a place to start looking as time is not your friend.

Hope this helps. I need a beer.

Skam

 

[Bushman5]

I guess the nanny state should just wall off the wilderness eh?


whatever did the Courier Du Bois, mountain men, prospectors, pioneers, natives etc ever do before the concept of SAR came along in the early 1900's.....?

oh never mind...

 

[chopchop]

I didn't realize that SAR teams were mostly volunteer. I hear about all the money it costs, all the assets mobilized, etc. I don't know, I guess I just figured there were state/fed/local SAR teams on the payroll.

My closest experience to anyone search & rescue would be friends of friends in the Coast Guard. They get paid for search and rescue, so that's how I picture it. I have thought about the danger those guys go into in ridiculous seas that are enough to swamp another boat (or they wouldn't be called for a rescue).

Anyway, thanks to all of the SAR guys that might be reading this! :thumbup:

 

[luckykitty]

The single biggest factor in outcome is letting a RESPONSIBLE someone know exactly where you are going and when you will return. We need a place to start looking as time is not your friend.

same goes for urban survival - Just a few minutes ago our daughter was on the brink of calling the police, one of her friends had a date, and our daughter should call her at a specific time. That other girl didn't answer for 5 minutes ... but then she did. Knowing where a young woman is and with whom she is can be really useful. I am so used to doing that -telling people I know I can trust, where I'll be, and when I'll be back, or when I'll be in contact that for a long while it didn't even occur to me people could just not do that.
Some friends of mine had dates fail from the beginning, cause some guy just didn't want them to tell others his name or license number of his car and consequently disappeared. (That was during my time as city dweller and university student ... )

 

[skammer]

I guess the nanny state should just wall off the wilderness eh?


whatever did the Courier Du Bois, mountain men, prospectors, pioneers, natives etc ever do before the concept of SAR came along in the early 1900's.....?

oh never mind...

Funny,

As they died they wished there was SAR.

No, dont wall off the wilderness, charge the negligent what the rescue is worth as a deterrent. Those trained and compitant will go anyway, those who arent and go anyway deserve the $ burden, either way they get rescued. Charge a hefty yearly fee to operate a GPS and you will eliminate many who have no business in the backcountry. The environment and everyone else wins.

No different than smoking and its cost to everyone and the health care system, charge $100 a pack of smokes and you eliminate the problem.

Simple user pay system.

Skam

 

[Toucan Oasis]

We just had a rocket scientist down here who wanted a closer view of the volcano.
They aint found him yet !
Nature is real good at curing stupidity.

 

[Bushman5]

Funny,

As they died they wished there was SAR.

No, dont wall off the wilderness, charge the negligent what the rescue is worth as a deterrent. Those trained and compitant will go anyway, those who arent and go anyway deserve the $ burden, either way they get rescued. Charge a hefty yearly fee to operate a GPS and you will eliminate many who have no business in the backcountry. The environment and everyone else wins.

No different than smoking and its cost to everyone and the health care system, charge $100 a pack of smokes and you eliminate the problem.

Simple user pay system.

Skam

now that is going to open a pandoras box.

on a side note: there are those of us who feel that the guberment, police, rangers, and other Fuedal staff have no business telling us how to manage our own affairs. I for one detail very clearly on my Flight Plan that under no circumstances is any government agency (police, sar, rangers) to be contacted if i am over due. Instead i have people in my Safety Network who are called, who know me and my training and THEY take appropriate actions as per the Contingency Plans i have in place.

 

[skammer]

I didn't realize that SAR teams were mostly volunteer. I hear about all the money it costs, all the assets mobilized, etc. I don't know, I guess I just figured there were state/fed/local SAR teams on the payroll.

My closest experience to anyone search & rescue would be friends of friends in the Coast Guard. They get paid for search and rescue, so that's how I picture it. I have thought about the danger those guys go into in ridiculous seas that are enough to swamp another boat (or they wouldn't be called for a rescue).

Anyway, thanks to all of the SAR guys that might be reading this! :thumbup:

There are some pro SAR types out there, FEMA Heavy Urban teams, industrial rescue, coast guard, military and few paid county teams but the vast majority are volunteers who take time off work unpaid day and night on their own dime.

Most assets are fundraised locally with a VERY modest amount of gvmnt grants trickled in. There are members of teams who do nothing but fundraise for them as they arent outdoors people but believe in the cause and have the skills to contribute in that way.

Its a hobby for most, a serious hobby at that but it allows them to learn teach and get outside for a better reason than just the view.

Skam

 

[skammer]

now that is going to open a pandoras box.

Why it will never happen to that extent .

Some areas are charging now, the volumes and seriousness of calls are just rediculous. For me it would just be nice to recover my lost wages and gear depreciation with a little extra for acquiring more and better team assets.

I wonder if the North Van team charges in your area, they are one busy team. They have some good youtube action vids.

Skam