Modern GEC Hybrid Line

Imagine creating and telling the story of Alice in Wonderland for the first time. It's not an icon yet, just a new story. Now imagine that the first audience that hears or reads it focuses on the fact that her dress is impractical. They don't get any of the rest of the story, just the dress. Frustrating right?

Now I know this is my fault because I used examples that were too specific. I think GEC would be awesome, but they're not really important to my original point. M390 is great, but not an actual concern of mine and yes, I know, it's hard to work with. I would like an Orange #92 or an Emerald Silver Twill #42, but those two knives aren't the reason for the post.

My point and what I wanted to discuss, again my fault for a poor explanation, is that there's two or three forms to most type of knives. We can get custom knives for $2000 with m390 steel and titanium or carbon fiber handles(modern) and we can get full production Spydercos and ZTs with those same materials. Volume and production process dictate the price. The same goes for traditionals. Full custom stag and carbon steel painstakingly made by two hands for $2000 or quickly made by many hands and machines for $100. Ditto for fixed blades, autos and whatever other niche market you can shake a stick at. With one exception. Or maybe more, but I only care about the one. The modern traditional hybrid.

There are quite a few custom makers that do this sort of knife. High end steel and modern handle material in a traditional slip joint pattern. They sell fast and for quite a bit of money. There is no Spyderco, GEC or Bark River for this sort of knife. You can't go to an online knife store and shop for one, sifting trough a variety of in stock models. It's only available in one off customs. I'd like to see someone, again GEC I'd like because we know we can trust them but a new comer would be fine as well, fill that void.
 
CSC already makes a single blade trapper in a steel equivalent to 154 cm with micarta covers, which is pretty similar to G-10. I posted this above in response to your post about wanting a knife like that.
 
Fanglekai said:
CSC already makes a single blade trapper in a steel equivalent to 154 cm with micarta covers, which is pretty similar to G-10. I posted this above in response to your post about wanting a knife like that.
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Fair enough and I'll have to check them out. I didn't like their carbon fiber g10 composite ones, but I love my GECs in micarta. The maroon #42 is my favorite.

There in lies my point though. They exist, but only as small runs here and there. There's not a full line of products anywhere.
 
ATwistedStaple said:
Fair enough and I'll have to check them out. I didn't like their carbon fiber g10 composite ones, but I love my GECs in micarta. The maroon #42 is my favorite.

There in lies my point though. They exist, but only as small runs here and there. There's not a full line of products anywhere.
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Drop $15k and do an SFO then. CSC supposedly doesn't have anymore 14-4 steel so you'd have to use their excellent 440C.
 
ATwistedStaple said:
Imagine creating and telling the story of Alice in Wonderland for the first time. It's not an icon yet, just a new story. Now imagine that the first audience that hears or reads it focuses on the fact that her dress is impractical. They don't get any of the rest of the story, just the dress. Frustrating right?

Now I know this is my fault because I used examples that were too specific. I think GEC would be awesome, but they're not really important to my original point. M390 is great, but not an actual concern of mine and yes, I know, it's hard to work with. I would like an Orange #92 or an Emerald Silver Twill #42, but those two knives aren't the reason for the post.

My point and what I wanted to discuss, again my fault for a poor explanation, is that there's two or three forms to most type of knives. We can get custom knives for $2000 with m390 steel and titanium or carbon fiber handles(modern) and we can get full production Spydercos and ZTs with those same materials. Volume and production process dictate the price. The same goes for traditionals. Full custom stag and carbon steel painstakingly made by two hands for $2000 or quickly made by many hands and machines for $100. Ditto for fixed blades, autos and whatever other niche market you can shake a stick at. With one exception. Or maybe more, but I only care about the one. The modern traditional hybrid.

There are quite a few custom makers that do this sort of knife. High end steel and modern handle material in a traditional slip joint pattern. They sell fast and for quite a bit of money. There is no Spyderco, GEC or Bark River for this sort of knife. You can't go to an online knife store and shop for one, sifting trough a variety of in stock models. It's only available in one off customs. I'd like to see someone, again GEC I'd like because we know we can trust them but a new comer would be fine as well, fill that void.
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You're wrong about the story not being told before. Maybe you didn't read the original story but I've heard it before. And you did say that you wanted that dress for a long time. ;)

Of course, prices vary with different makers and depending on the exact specifications of the knife but $2000 is not the average for the cost of a custom knife. That IS part of your main point since you are interested in something that fills in "the void". But I won't dwell on it.

Honestly, it sounds like you are asking for what you want, not what the market demands. There have been companies that made knives with modern materials and super steels. Some still do. They just didn't do exactly what you wanted. If you are seriously interested in starting a company with such products, it would be best to look at those other examples. What materials had been used? What were the prices? How did they sell? I can think of several examples from Case and Queen. I bought some of these knives brand new for less than half of the retail price when auctioned with a low starting bid. Some weren't particularly successful on the retail market. What you want is something that is a very small niche within a tiny market.
 
I should also say that I would be supportive if you make the effort to chase this dream and build a company ground up with quality products. If you want someone else to do it for you (GEC, Queen, Case, CSC or whoever) then I just don't think it's in their best interest to deviate from what they're already doing. And some of what they're doing is already along the lines of what you want.
 
It's an interesting discussion. As a newbie to these forums I notice people here are nice but very passionate in their views! Which seems to lead to more arguments than may be necessary.

Anyway my thoughts are, that if gec offered a classic gec knife with a special steel, it would be snapped up in minutes. But only because people want a GEC knife, and that is based on the established reputation. So it may harm their brand in the long term. Kind of 'jumping the shark'. Like the special runs of knives that Camillus and Schrade started doing as they started going under. It didn't make their brand more desirable than cheaper Chinese gimmicks on imported knives, and probably made people over-value the aspects of the knife that those companies didn't want to be valued as it hurt their business model.

Also, I am not into modern super steels. I think of a pocket knife as carried often and used rarely (and for small tasks). Otherwise a fixed blade is the go. Based on that useage, super steels don't offer me enough to warrant a higher price. I'd buy one for it's novelty, but to be honestl the other features of the knife rank as more important than the steel.
 
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I like modern knives too, and everyone is entitled to their taste, but I'm really grateful there is a company like GEC to recreate the old patterns authentically without compromise, this is hard to do - as great as they are, they are still learning and it will be a while before they can match the craftsmanship of some of the more intricate patterns (e.g. the windsor) of the early 20th century cutlers. Diluting their efforts into modern hybrids would derail this. There are some companies that use modern steels on traditional designs, especially from Japan - the ag russell peanut and trappers use VG10 steel; Moki, Katz knives might be an option.
 
I would love to have a GEC in modern steels for this simple reason: I don't like rust. I live near the ocean.
 
I'd rather see GEC make a Equal End Cattle Knife with that picked bone.

GEC is doing what I'd like to see in general. No desire for Super Steels here. 440C is fine enough for me. I like 1095 even better.

CSC might be the knife company for you though. The Half Moon Trapper already comes in fancy steel and micarta.
 
ATwistedStaple said:
They exist, but only as small runs here and there. There's not a full line of products anywhere.
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Best I can tell, none of the current American traditional knife production companies features a full line of "go to" traditional knives (except maybe Case's yellow delrin in CV-- but even then, not all 'standard' patterns are represented).

[And Case, the only company I can think of offhand that does present lines and not constantly-changing runs, has even stopped producing the CV Swayback Jack in chestnut bone, which I consider(ed) a "go to" recommendation.]

Make of that what you will.

~ P.
 
To even connect the GEC name or brand to a discussion like this shows a lack of understanding about who Great Eastern Cutlery "is".
 
ATwistedStaple said:
$200 sounds like production price to me and I'm really more concerned with the handle material. If the tooling costs too much on powdered steels, which is totally understandable, I think the line would be successful with standard steel. I really like the patina on my #92.
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Ahhh, just went back and re-read this. Case already does G-10 and Carbon Fiber and A.G. Russell offers several patterns in Rucarta, which is pretty much the same thing as micarta.
 
ATwistedStaple said:
Imagine creating and telling the story of Alice in Wonderland for the first time. It's not an icon yet, just a new story. Now imagine that the first audience that hears or reads it focuses on the fact that her dress is impractical. They don't get any of the rest of the story, just the dress. Frustrating right?

Now I know this is my fault because I used examples that were too specific. I think GEC would be awesome, but they're not really important to my original point. M390 is great, but not an actual concern of mine and yes, I know, it's hard to work with. I would like an Orange #92 or an Emerald Silver Twill #42, but those two knives aren't the reason for the post.

My point and what I wanted to discuss, again my fault for a poor explanation, is that there's two or three forms to most type of knives. We can get custom knives for $2000 with m390 steel and titanium or carbon fiber handles(modern) and we can get full production Spydercos and ZTs with those same materials. Volume and production process dictate the price. The same goes for traditionals. Full custom stag and carbon steel painstakingly made by two hands for $2000 or quickly made by many hands and machines for $100. Ditto for fixed blades, autos and whatever other niche market you can shake a stick at. With one exception. Or maybe more, but I only care about the one. The modern traditional hybrid.

There are quite a few custom makers that do this sort of knife. High end steel and modern handle material in a traditional slip joint pattern. They sell fast and for quite a bit of money. There is no Spyderco, GEC or Bark River for this sort of knife. You can't go to an online knife store and shop for one, sifting trough a variety of in stock models. It's only available in one off customs. I'd like to see someone, again GEC I'd like because we know we can trust them but a new comer would be fine as well, fill that void.
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I was going along with your op because I do appreciate knives with modern materials and, unlike many here, do not think that using high tech or ultra modern materials (twill cf, superconductor, ti, m390, xhp, etc) inherently detracts from the traditional nature of traditional knives. I believe the tradition is in their construction and the age old processes that go into their production. And that is the precise reason your continued objections are so flawed. There is no way that knives could be produced using traditional methods and processes, using ultra modern materials, at production prices. We can wish all we want, I wish the 1/50 $250,000 motorcycle I want was widely available at the price of a Honda dirtbike, but that doesn't mean what we wish for will ever be feasible from a business perspective.

For the record, I do not like the dogpiling that often happens in the Traditional subforum when someone "rocks the boat". However, looking at the tone of your posts in this thread, and from my experience/actions when I first started posting in this subforum, I believe that some people do act in a way that brings more condemnation than would normally be seen. I am not big into club mentality, but if you come into a close knit community with a relatively established set of norms and criticize the respected members you're probably going to have a bad time.

The good thing is that as long as you dial back the stand offish tone (that you very well might not realize you are using) and start posting normal content you will be welcomed and get to know lots of helpful and knowledgeable people. One of my first posts in this subforum turned into an arguing match with mods and, though I understand the situation now, it put a rather bad taste in my mouth that kept me away from the traditional subforum for a while. Now I have over 1000 posts here and, though I don't post enough to really be a "member of the porch", I feel welcome enough that it's my most visited subforum besides general.

So what I'm trying to say is don't get discouraged.
 
the thing about modern scale materials like carbon fibre and the emerald silver twill (I googled a few pics of this to see what this material looked like), is that its fine sharp lines look good on a precise, machine/laser/computer-cut modern folder, where the tolerances are kept tight with the aid of modern techology. But with traditionals, their essential hand-made qualities mean that there are always little imperfections, the best knives have an aesthetic that can wear these imperfections, and it is part of the charm. Gnarly stag scales work with this, as does naturally asymmetrical wood grain. I don't think the modern materials would look quite as good.
 
BigBiscuit said:
I have no interest at all. I think they're doing everything right just the way things are. Keep doing what they do best. I think if they branch out too much, quality control can suffer. There are other companies doing it and I hear more complaints about those companies than I do with GEC. I like that they have a specialized niche market.
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Totally agree.

OMR.
 
Very good points ALLHSS. People should not be decried just for thinking differently.

Regards, Will.
 
Would a GEC collaboration with Jared Oeser or Gene Wiseman fit the bill? I think that would be really cool and would probably sell out pretty fast. The price might be a tad more than you are talking about but I think that could cover the modern traditional you're talking about.
 
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