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My experience with Ann_Dem
- Thread starter peterinct
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2001
- Messages
- 12,169
I think that if you bought a knife from Vlad and you knew it was stolen..you should return it to the maker or the person who was ripped off.
If you bought a knife that you thought was a legit deal you should do what your conscience dictates. That will be different for each individual. I personally would sell the knife and at least try and split the cash with the person or business that had been ripped off. That way at least everyone gets something and no one loses to bad..
Except for Vlad who in spite of sneaking away this time will someday answer for his crimes. In this world or the next.
If you bought a knife that you thought was a legit deal you should do what your conscience dictates. That will be different for each individual. I personally would sell the knife and at least try and split the cash with the person or business that had been ripped off. That way at least everyone gets something and no one loses to bad..
Except for Vlad who in spite of sneaking away this time will someday answer for his crimes. In this world or the next.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2001
- Messages
- 26,713
As far as the land analogy.
Na not without a legal fight, now if you make that land seizure a knife seizure. Yes I have no problem and it would not matter if it was a 50 buck knife or one that was more expensive to any degree.
That has been my point all along so if you are going to try to draw an anology, use a knife not a hunk of land. (I am not close with folks in the land community and do not know the norms of it's behavior.)
Na not without a legal fight, now if you make that land seizure a knife seizure. Yes I have no problem and it would not matter if it was a 50 buck knife or one that was more expensive to any degree.
That has been my point all along so if you are going to try to draw an anology, use a knife not a hunk of land. (I am not close with folks in the land community and do not know the norms of it's behavior.)
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Messages
- 1,247
A couple years ago I came into the possession of 3 knives that after some research I discovered had been stolen from a maker by a former employee before they had gone to powder coat & marking. I contacted the maker and he thanked me for my honesty and told me that since his insurance had paid him for the loss that I could keep them since I came into them fair and square. I thought it was really nice of him. Had he wanted them returned I would have gladly sent them back.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2001
- Messages
- 26,713
I'm not trying to tell any one what to do. I am trying to illustrate the feeling I have based on my experience with fellow knife lovers.
The first and best step I would take is to get in touch with the maker and follow the trail.
The first and best step I would take is to get in touch with the maker and follow the trail.
wolfmann601
Gone, but not forgotton. RIP Ira.
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2001
- Messages
- 7,385
No matter how sweet a knife deal is, no matter whether you knew it was stolen or know the victim. It makes you part of the criminal act.
No deal involving a stolen knife is a deal and the Law is clear; if you are in possession of a knife you know to be stolen, irrespective of how much you paid, you are in possession of stolen property. Considering the type of knives involved my bet it's a felony in almost every state.
If LE were to get involved and locate everyt knife there would be a new set of victims; those that bought those knives in good faith from someone they believed to be honest and have integrity. The original owners of those knives would have them returned at some point by LE.
Buying stolen shiit is messy!!!
And I hope one day to meet KKhansen. I have never met someone that freaking stupid in person and it would be quite the treat!!!!
No deal involving a stolen knife is a deal and the Law is clear; if you are in possession of a knife you know to be stolen, irrespective of how much you paid, you are in possession of stolen property. Considering the type of knives involved my bet it's a felony in almost every state.
If LE were to get involved and locate everyt knife there would be a new set of victims; those that bought those knives in good faith from someone they believed to be honest and have integrity. The original owners of those knives would have them returned at some point by LE.
Buying stolen shiit is messy!!!
And I hope one day to meet KKhansen. I have never met someone that freaking stupid in person and it would be quite the treat!!!!
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2001
- Messages
- 12,336
Two posts. One from Vlad (vladil) from a couple of years ago in the 'Storeowners Beware' thread. And the other from ann_dem back a few pages.
Gig has already pointed this out, but just look at the comma punctuation and the phrasing.
It's so friggin' apparent now that it hurts.
Coop
Gig has already pointed this out, but just look at the comma punctuation and the phrasing.
let's cut the BS , I will ask once again. ANYONE who claims to be scammed by me , can we get a scans from fedex/ups/usps/dhl whatever ?!
PUT UP OR SHUT UP , that's simple !
shaldag , just noticed your post , look keyboard warrior ... dial my number and call me the names you just called me here. I'm looking forward hearing from you too.
I do understand it exactly.
I readed about vlad and I imagined myself that we are both from Israel , and I'm selling my collection right now , and that this would draw such thoughts from people around.
But those constant atacks on me also not ok.
I don't know what to say here, or how to prove you.
I'm not Vlad that's is, Viking.
I want to draw a line here....
1)am I dealer - No , I'm not , there was thread about it on BladeForums , please read it.
2)am I vlad ? - No , I'm not , if someone may think I'm not Ann ? just pm me , I'll give you my phone number , call me and let's talk about in amateur form.
3)am I male - No, well my husband says he wouldn't marry me then
4) The deal with Peter is failed. We both went unhappy from it.
However , it's my first deal that didn't success , give me a break ?
This thread just making me headache , nothing more then that.
p.s Thanks to all BF mates who supported me by PM , emails , or in this thread.
It's so friggin' apparent now that it hurts.
Coop
Arthur Washburn
Knifemaker and AMC Freak
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2000
- Messages
- 1,653
Gus,
It is my humble honor and privilege to know and call someone with your honor and integrity friend. You are one of the good guys.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2001
- Messages
- 4,399
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2001
- Messages
- 12,336
Tracing stolen custom knives would not be as difficult as determining if a production knife was part of a illegitimate deal.
Once again, as a community (this specific forum and knife people in general), members were led to believe that the sale of these items was in good faith and a good deal. There are PLENTY of satisfied transactions and reports on the GB&U to show this support. We relied on each other.
Now the circumstances have changed. It places a VERY large moral and ethical dilemma on every member who bought a knife in good faith.
To the letter of the law, wolfman601 is correct. So is Gus and others in their support for a introspective look at your personal behaviour regarding returning 'stolen goods'. But I would stand clear of making in obligatory for all dealing members to purge their purchases and offer said knives to a yet-to-be-determined source.
I don't know all the dealers and the instances that Vlad had obtained product illegitimately. So far no one here does. That's some homework of a magnitude that only Mobile Holmes could pull off, and I am not presenting he is obligated to do so. But, it would take that and more to get it right.
I guess my point is to those who wish to do that homework, you are truly going the extra mile. I want to support them, in this community, but I also wouldn't want to make every member who acted in good faith to be now thought of as bad because they haven't given up their wares. I would just let that water quietly find its own level.
It's a slippery slope we are dealing with.
Coop
Once again, as a community (this specific forum and knife people in general), members were led to believe that the sale of these items was in good faith and a good deal. There are PLENTY of satisfied transactions and reports on the GB&U to show this support. We relied on each other.
Now the circumstances have changed. It places a VERY large moral and ethical dilemma on every member who bought a knife in good faith.
To the letter of the law, wolfman601 is correct. So is Gus and others in their support for a introspective look at your personal behaviour regarding returning 'stolen goods'. But I would stand clear of making in obligatory for all dealing members to purge their purchases and offer said knives to a yet-to-be-determined source.
I don't know all the dealers and the instances that Vlad had obtained product illegitimately. So far no one here does. That's some homework of a magnitude that only Mobile Holmes could pull off, and I am not presenting he is obligated to do so. But, it would take that and more to get it right.
I guess my point is to those who wish to do that homework, you are truly going the extra mile. I want to support them, in this community, but I also wouldn't want to make every member who acted in good faith to be now thought of as bad because they haven't given up their wares. I would just let that water quietly find its own level.
It's a slippery slope we are dealing with.
Coop
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 75,780
You see a lot of legal advice on the net from people who don't know what they're talking about.... If Judge Judy really said anything resembling that it's just more proof that television is not the place to get your facts.
In most cases it's not going to be possible to find out what dealer a knife was stolen from. Even if it's a unique knife in a sense, for instance the abalone has a unique pattern, who knows which dealer that came from?
U.S. law says property belongs to the owner. If it's stolen that doesn't change ownership; it still belongs to the owner. If the thief sells it that still doesn't change ownership; he didn't own it and wasn't entitled to sell it. No matter how many times it gets resold it still belongs to the owner, and if the owner can identify his property he can get it back. (Eventually. It's often held for evidence but after the trial it's returned to the owner.)
But it's hard to see how even with full cooperation from everyone involved the owners of the knives Pavlov stole can ever identify their property.
In most cases it's not going to be possible to find out what dealer a knife was stolen from. Even if it's a unique knife in a sense, for instance the abalone has a unique pattern, who knows which dealer that came from?
U.S. law says property belongs to the owner. If it's stolen that doesn't change ownership; it still belongs to the owner. If the thief sells it that still doesn't change ownership; he didn't own it and wasn't entitled to sell it. No matter how many times it gets resold it still belongs to the owner, and if the owner can identify his property he can get it back. (Eventually. It's often held for evidence but after the trial it's returned to the owner.)
But it's hard to see how even with full cooperation from everyone involved the owners of the knives Pavlov stole can ever identify their property.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,206
No comment on what anyone should do, but as to the "letter of the law," the general rule, subject to no exception applicable here, is clear and simple:
a thief, never having had legal title to stolen personal property, can never convey legal title to anyone. Title to stolen property continues to be in the person from whom it was stolen.
There are time limits during which the owner, or his estate, must act to replevy the property once he knows its location. Those limits vary among the states and nations.
Innocence does not convey title.
ED. Which is why, from time to time, you hear about another museum losing a painting that turns out to be Nazi loot.
a thief, never having had legal title to stolen personal property, can never convey legal title to anyone. Title to stolen property continues to be in the person from whom it was stolen.
There are time limits during which the owner, or his estate, must act to replevy the property once he knows its location. Those limits vary among the states and nations.
Innocence does not convey title.
ED. Which is why, from time to time, you hear about another museum losing a painting that turns out to be Nazi loot.
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2006
- Messages
- 16,703
An amazing thread. Very interesting to read everyone's position on this...to get a little glimpse into your minds. There's a lot of integrity out there.
Think about this. Is any physical object so important you'd trade your honor for it? If you don't grokk the concept of 'honor,' then substitute 'self respect' or 'self worth' or 'reputation' or even 'name.'
Do you really need to look up the letter of the law? Very few of us escape our childhoods lacking a moral sense -- a sense of what is right and what is wrong. One of our parents' most important gifts to us and impossible to escape.
If you've bought something in innocence, you know you've done nothing wrong. If you later find out it was stolen from someone else, you've still done nothing wrong, but how do you feel then? A little unsettled, a little disturbed, a little uncertain, maybe even a little defensive? Brothers, that's your honor taking a hit. Don't let that happen without a fight...ever.
You might never discover the real owner. But you've just got to try to find out. Anything less is beneath you; it's a stain on your honor that won't ever go away.
Sure I like my knives, and I know you like yours. But your best knife is just another physical object, just another 'thing.' If it feels wrong, it is wrong -- give it up.
You know what to do.
Think about this. Is any physical object so important you'd trade your honor for it? If you don't grokk the concept of 'honor,' then substitute 'self respect' or 'self worth' or 'reputation' or even 'name.'
Do you really need to look up the letter of the law? Very few of us escape our childhoods lacking a moral sense -- a sense of what is right and what is wrong. One of our parents' most important gifts to us and impossible to escape.
If you've bought something in innocence, you know you've done nothing wrong. If you later find out it was stolen from someone else, you've still done nothing wrong, but how do you feel then? A little unsettled, a little disturbed, a little uncertain, maybe even a little defensive? Brothers, that's your honor taking a hit. Don't let that happen without a fight...ever.
You might never discover the real owner. But you've just got to try to find out. Anything less is beneath you; it's a stain on your honor that won't ever go away.
Sure I like my knives, and I know you like yours. But your best knife is just another physical object, just another 'thing.' If it feels wrong, it is wrong -- give it up.
You know what to do.
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
But it's hard to see how even with full cooperation from everyone involved the owners of the knives Pavlov stole can ever identify their property.
Quite a few of the custom knives came from dealer. Many dealers keep a good record, including photographs, of knives they have had in inventory. If photographs have been kept it wouldn't be very hard to corroborate ownership of many of those one of knives.
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
I imagine that there will be a lot of soul searching going on in the next little while, but that about says it all.
Anyone that were ripped off by Vlad that sees this thread should list the knives that were involved and post them here. It will be up to the people that bought these knives to decide what to do after that.
Hats off to you Gig. :thumbup:
To give you an idea of how this guy may have obtained knives, a local knife store I do business with got ripped off when it sent $10,000 worth of knives to Singapore. This store deals in all the major brands and customs too. This is a new, family owned business, so it was a big hit. Fortunately they survived it and are still in business.
To give you an idea of how this guy may have obtained knives, a local knife store I do business with got ripped off when it sent $10,000 worth of knives to Singapore. This store deals in all the major brands and customs too. This is a new, family owned business, so it was a big hit. Fortunately they survived it and are still in business.