My first Kizer

I have really enjoyed my Gingrich GTI and it has been my main carry for the past few weeks. I also like the Klecker I got, but it is just a bit narrow, and the frame screws sticking out really gave me a problem getting it out of my pocket smoothly, but heck I still like to play with it as it is so very smooth. And am waiting on the 5401A2 to arrive next week. Will be my first full ti framelock from Kizer.

I'm also looking forward to seeing the new prototypes coming out of BLADE 2014.
 
A reason to be somewhat disappointed in Kizer. I guess it is obvious to any who have read this thread, that I have been pretty pro-Kizer to this point. I remain positive about the materials they are using and the knife's that they offer, but I am going to attach a series of e-mails here, to show why I am very disappointed in Kizer's stance on my second knife, the Ki3404 A2, while I like the appearance of this knife very much, as I have stated here before, it never did and still doesn't flip worth a darn. It is like the action is submerged in molasses. As I also discussed in this thread, I disassembled the knife, and polished the washers. In short as you will see if you read on, this voided any warranty with Kizer. The dealer I purchased the knife from has said as much also, but in the e-mails I will post, you see it straight from David, the fellow who posts here on behalf of Kizer. In addition to these e-mails, I sent him on other, which summarizes the fact that I am very unhappy with their resolution to my issue. Basically at this time, a few days after I told David/Kizer I would wait before posting their response, I am left to resolve this issue on my own. The exchange follows:
Hi, Don:


I spoke with the engineering team regarding your situation.


The current conclusion is that this is not a defect in the manufacturing process or a defect in material (i.e. lock failing or inclusion in material). At this time, we would recommend using a different type of lubricant such as nano-lube/nano-oil that may improve the feeling of the action.


If you were to send it in, we would not be able to "tune" the knife other than to return it to the factory spec and tolerance. However, since the knife has been disassembled and work performed on it, the warranty would not apply in this case and you would be responsible for shipping cost to China (where the factory is located) and back (our CA warehouse is currently only qualified for warranty swap and not repairs).


I apologize for the inconvenience this issue has cost you, please let me know how you would like to proceed.


Thank you.


David.



-----原始邮件-----
&#21457;&#20214;&#20154;:"Don Davis" <dinks@windstream.net>
&#21457;&#36865;&#26102;&#38388;:2014-03-12 08:14:28 (&#26143;&#26399;&#19977;)
&#25910;&#20214;&#20154;: "kizer@tbt-gd.com" <kizer@tbt-gd.com>
&#25220;&#36865;:
&#20027;&#39064;: Re: Ki 3404A2


Hey David, I hadn't heard from you and I wanted to just follow up on my knife.


Thanks--Don Davis

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 6, 2014, at 4:18 PM, kizer@tbt-gd.com wrote:


Hi, Don:


I'm sorry to hear the knife did not perform to your satisfaction.


Usually in cases like this, we would recommend contacting the dealer as your first choice due to it would be faster for the user. However, since the knife has been dis-assembled and worked on, I'm not sure that would be an option at this time.


Let me consult with our teams to see, in this case, how we can be of help.


Thank you.


David



-----&#21407;&#22987;&#37038;&#20214;-----
&#21457;&#20214;&#20154;:dinks@windstream.net
&#21457;&#36865;&#26102;&#38388;:2014-03-06 05:35:49 (&#26143;&#26399;&#22235;)
&#25910;&#20214;&#20154;: kizer@tbt-gd.com
&#25220;&#36865;:
&#20027;&#39064;: Ki 3404A2


Hello David, I think. My name is Don Davis, I post on Blade Forums as Fish30114. I have recently purchased two Kizer knives, and started a thread on Blade Forums titled ‘My First Kizer’ I found this e-mail address in a reply to one to the posts in that thread. Long story short, I like both of my blades a lot in general. The liner lock, the 412 A2 I have no issues with. The second knife I bought is the 304 A2 and although I like the knife OK in general, it doesn’t flip well at all. If I loosen up the pivot where the knife is sloppy loose nearly, it still doesn’t flip well, and the blade centering goes to pot. I have taken the knife apart and polished the copper colored washers, still to no avail. I would like your guidance on how to approach this issue, as it is I am nowhere near satisfied with this knife as is. I like the styling and appearance and apparent fit and finish save this one factor, which is a key one obviously. I look forward to hearing from you, my contact info is:

Don Davis


So, as a cautionary tale, to all you fellow blade enthusiasts, beware disassembling your Kizer, even if it is such mundane stuff such as cleaning it, or as in my case, that and polishing the washers--which didn't cure my issue BTW. I say possibly a reason to be disappointed in Kizer, because, I actually think that naively, Kizer and others make the assumption that if disassembled, the knife must get fouled up by the owner--I obviously don't agree with that, but I am not sure that is the wrong position for a mfg. to take. In my final reply to Kizer, I state my position, which is, that if a knife is found to have had improper maintenance performed on it by it's owner, or other issues caused by the owner, that is one thing and possibly worthy of voiding all warranty, but for many mfgs. such as Kershaw, they have even sent me replacement parts of maintenance and even repair of some of the knives I own from them. (other mfgs have done the same) So in closing, I would ask for advice, and tips on how I might get this knife to start to flip decently. I have thought of obtaining some washers from a source other than Kizer (since they are not going to help past this point) or sanding the washers in the knife down a bit--other suggestions are welcome. And BTW, for those of you that have posted here that you have disassembled your knife, even if just to clean, or polish the washers, such as I did, be prepared that you no longer have a warranty from Kizer, if you disclose that fact.
 
To be fair, you would get the same response from Spyderco, Benchmade, Kerdhaw/ZT, Cold Steel, Strider, Hogue, Al Mar, LionSteel, CRKT, SOG, Microtech, and most other manufacturers. Disassembly voids the warranty with everyone but CRK and Hinderer.
 
Comeuppance, I appreciate your views and generally agree with your positions, spot on. But, I can assure you this isn't the case with ZT/Kershaw. As I stated they have actually sent me parts (n/c) in the past which required disassembly/reassembly of the knives to install, including torsion bars, standoffs and various other parts. I do understand many mfgs. will hold this same view, and as a general position I disagree with this--as I also stated, if there is evidence that improper procedures have been performed on a knife, that is one thing, but simply disassembling the knife, to say clean and polish washers, as you and many others here have said you do as a matter of standard operating procedure, that shouldn't void a warranty, obviously perhaps IMO. Still would welcome any further response on suggestions of how to improve this knife, as it appears that I am stuck with it as is.
 
I didn't realize that so many manufacturers have that policy. Seems kind of silly. I can work on my car and that doesn't void the warranty.
 
unwisefool said:
I didn't realize that so many manufacturers have that policy. Seems kind of silly. I can work on my car and that doesn't void the warranty.
Click to expand...

True that. And a knife is much less complicated than a car, and it should be apparent if the knife owner had done anything in disassembling/reassembling their knife that screwed it up, and justified voiding warranties.
 
Fish30114 said:
Comeuppance, I appreciate your views and generally agree with your positions, spot on. But, I can assure you this isn't the case with ZT/Kershaw. As I stated they have actually sent me parts (n/c) in the past which required disassembly/reassembly of the knives to install, including torsion bars, standoffs and various other parts. I do understand many mfgs. will hold this same view, and as a general position I disagree with this--as I also stated, if there is evidence that improper procedures have been performed on a knife, that is one thing, but simply disassembling the knife, to say clean and polish washers, as you and many others here have said you do as a matter of standard operating procedure, that shouldn't void a warranty, obviously perhaps IMO. Still would welcome any further response on suggestions of how to improve this knife, as it appears that I am stuck with it as is.
Click to expand...

Ah! I stand corrected. Apparently, Kai does not have a clause concerning disassembly on their website. I agree that it is a silly policy, as most knives benefit from an initial breakdown and cleaning, perhaps with washer-polishing. It's more than a little annoying that most manufacturers have such a policy - but I do wonder if they would actually notice or care if there is no sign of it.

As far as improving the knife in it's current state, polishing the washers and using a good lubricant does wonders typically. Adding a drop of lube onto the detent ball should help the pivot action as well.

For centering and adjusting the pivot action:

1- Loosen all the handle screws (don't remove them, just loosen them)
2- Loosen the Pivot screw, again don't remove it
3- Get a small piece of paper and fold it a couple times. Wedge it in between the blade and handle until the blade is centered.
4- Tighten the pivot screw all the way.
5- tighten handle screws from the furthest away the pivot, alternating sides if needed.
6- Remove the paper, and slowly loosen the pivot screw just enough so that the blade can be flipped open.

I've had about a 70/30 success rate with that process on a variety of different knives.
 
Comeuppance, thanks for the feedback. I actually polished the washers as advised by yourself and a few others, I used a strop with white compound on it. Cleaned the knife out and re-lubed with Nano oil. I didn't focus on the detent ball specifically, but did give several drops of the Nano to the knife as a whole. I think this knife is actually a little bit out of good specs. if the pivot is loosened to the point of ridiculous, it still doesn't want to flip well, plus all blade centering is lost. As it is with the blade centered, the knife just feels too tight to flip. I think I am going to start by actually sanding the washers that are in it down a good bit, and see if that changes anything.

Fingers crossed.
 
Hi, Fish30114:

Since you posted only half of our communication in email on Friday 3/14/2014, did you receive my latest email response to your email yesterday (3/13/2014) where I further explained the reason for unable to offer you a no-cost warranty exchange/repair and offered you some additional remedy? In my email to you yesterday, I offered to get you replacement parts if you think that would help you in your situation since you mentioned you have received such from other mfrs. before. I guess that was not a satisfactory solution for you since you have not responded to me before posting here.

If you decide to take me up on the offer of replacement parts (washers, etc), please let me know.

Thanks.

Kizer



You can post the rest of our communication in its entirety as well if you prefer.
 
RamZar said:
Looking forward to your new prototypes and hopefully tip up carry.

By the way, Blade Show is on June 6-8, 2014 in Atlanta, Georgia.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction. I was apparently still in 2013 mode.

Kizer.
 
David, I did not receive any further e-mails after you sent the one where I replied and stated that I would wait a couple of days before posting anything here or elsewhere. I will go check my jumk e-mails, but all your other e-mails have come to me fine previously. I believe I would be interested in getting some new washers for this knife, as I am hoping that is where the cure lies. I will go through my e-mails thoroughly and reply back to you.
Thanks--Don
 
David, I just looked and I did have an e-mail from you from late this morning--after I posted this issue here. At any rate I understand your/Kizers view and I will forward you and e-mail return stating my specific request. I appreciate you following up on this matter.
Regards--Don
 
Hi, Fish30114:

That email was sent yesterday on 3/13 in reply to your email on 3/13 same day (I remember specifically because it was the last email I sent for the day), and if you look at the sent time, it should reflect as such.

I'll wait for your email and follow up on the parts request.

Thanks.

Kizer
 
David I have no reason to dispute your claims on when you sent your reply, but I actually didn't receive it until 11:35 this morning. I have replied to you directly, and for the record I appreciate your follow up and assistance, and understand your/Kizer's stance, even though disagreeing with it. Your help is truly appreciated.

Thanks again--Don
 
Comeuppance said:
Ah! I stand corrected. Apparently, Kai does not have a clause concerning disassembly on their website. I agree that it is a silly policy, as most knives benefit from an initial breakdown and cleaning, perhaps with washer-polishing. It's more than a little annoying that most manufacturers have such a policy - but I do wonder if they would actually notice or care if there is no sign of it.

As far as improving the knife in it's current state, polishing the washers and using a good lubricant does wonders typically. Adding a drop of lube onto the detent ball should help the pivot action as well.

For centering and adjusting the pivot action:

1- Loosen all the handle screws (don't remove them, just loosen them)
2- Loosen the Pivot screw, again don't remove it
3- Get a small piece of paper and fold it a couple times. Wedge it in between the blade and handle until the blade is centered.
4- Tighten the pivot screw all the way.
5- tighten handle screws from the furthest away the pivot, alternating sides if needed.
6- Remove the paper, and slowly loosen the pivot screw just enough so that the blade can be flipped open.

I've had about a 70/30 success rate with that process on a variety of different knives.
Click to expand...


Honestly I have seen a lot of talk about disassembling knives voiding warranties but in most cases I have found that the only time they really hold you to that is if the damage or problems with the knife are a direct result of you disassembling. The main reason for this being that as long as you know what your doing and have experience tinkering with knives and dont go mangling screws there is very little evidence a knife was taken apart.
 
PURPLEDC said:
Honestly I have seen a lot of talk about disassembling knives voiding warranties but in most cases I have found that the only time they really hold you to that is if the damage or problems with the knife are a direct result of you disassembling. The main reason for this being that as long as you know what your doing and have experience tinkering with knives and dont go mangling screws there is very little evidence a knife was taken apart.
Click to expand...



The highlighted section, in purple, is exactly what I planned to say. Though I have never sent a knife in for warranty service if I did I really do not think my disassembly of it would not be telling. This is the reason for buying good torx driver's. I use Wiha drivers and have no stripping/mangling problems to deal with.

But for the record I have not taken my Kizer's apart, I was just kidding in all though posts where I talked about disassembling them an such, yeah just kidding..........;)

Still looking forward to the 5401A2 arriving next week!
 
Just for everyone's information, from day one when I received this one of my Kizers I have not been close to satisfied with the way it opens--flips. I doubt seriously if ANYONE could tell that this knife had been disassembled, but I was straight up with the dealer I bought it from, Kizer and everyone else I talked to about this knife. PURPLEDC & Cutter, that is my exact opinion--I think if you do something that legitimately should void a warranty, that is one thing, but I feel to arbitrarily 'rule' that your knife is not warrantied is wrong. On the other hand, I chose to disclose that I had disassembled this knife and polished the washers (by rubbing them on a strop with white compound) and Kizer's position is that this voided the warranty. I think this is rather naïve, and as I have stated several mfgs. have actually sent me parts that required the knife to be disassembled to install them, and whereso, it in no way voided any warranty on the knives. Other mfgs. where I have had to return knives to, after inspecting them, when I had disassembled them previously, had no issues performing warranty work, or replacing the knife.
David who responds here to Kizer questions, has been very proactive in communicating with me on this knife, while operating within the restraints of Kizers policies, and has been helpful in offering to source replacement parts for me as I have requested. I feel that for a new knife company that doesn't really have much of a US presence yet, David has been as helpful as he could be, again given Kizers policies.
Despite my issues, I feel like these are good knives, attractive and built with good materials, just a company that doesn't have CS like we may be used to such as that from Kershaw/ZT, Benchmade, or Spyderco for example.

David has requested the parts that I have requested, and I will comment when I have received them.
 
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Never knew these existed till now.I love the 3404a1 with the skulls,plan on getting one soon.
 
Fish30114 said:
Just for everyone's information, from day one when I received this one of my Kizers I have not been close to satisfied with the way it opens--flips. I doubt seriously if ANYONE could tell that this knife had been disassembled, but I was straight up with the dealer I bought it from, Kizer and everyone else I talked to about this knife. PURPLEDC & Cutter, that is my exact opinion--I think if you do something that legitimately should void a warranty, that is one thing, but I feel to arbitrarily 'rule' that your knife is not warrantied is wrong. On the other hand, I chose to disclose that I had disassembled this knife and polished the washers (by rubbing them on a strop with white compound) and Kizer's position is that this voided the warranty. I think this is rather naïve, and as I have stated several mfgs. have actually sent me parts that required the knife to be disassembled to install them, and whereso, it in no way voided any warranty on the knives. Other mfgs. where I have had to return knives to, after inspecting them, when I had disassembled them previously, had no issues performing warranty work, or replacing the knife.
David who responds here to Kizer questions, has been very proactive in communicating with me on this knife, while operating within the restraints of Kizers policies, and has been helpful in offering to source replacement parts for me as I have requested. I feel that for a new knife company that doesn't really have much of a US presence yet, David has been as helpful as he could be, again given Kizers policies.
Despite my issues, I feel like these are good knives, attractive and built with good materials, just a company that doesn't have CS like we may be used to such as that from Kershaw/ZT, Benchmade, or Spyderco for example.

David has requested the parts that I have requested, and I will comment when I have received them.
Click to expand...


The new washers that were offered would require you to disassemble the knife to install them. Would that not mean the knife manufacturer is encouraging you to void your warranty? Is that correct, or has Kizer offered new washers because they know you have already voided your warranty?

The things I ponder.... I do disassemble all my knives, it is just what I do, and I've never used the warranty for any knife I have owned. Both of my Kizer's were disassembled and cleaned because of the sticky action, and now both glide out like they were on bearings. I will do the same for the Ki5401A2 that is coming next week!
 
cutter17 said:
The new washers that were offered would require you to disassemble the knife to install them. Would that not mean the knife manufacturer is encouraging you to void your warranty? Is that correct, or has Kizer offered new washers because they know you have already voided your warranty?

The things I ponder.... I do disassemble all my knives, it is just what I do, and I've never used the warranty for any knife I have owned. Both of my Kizer's were disassembled and cleaned because of the sticky action, and now both glide out like they were on bearings. I will do the same for the Ki5401A2 that is coming next week!
Click to expand...

Hi, Cutter17:

The knife in question has already been disassembled so the warranty is null and void, further work on this knife will not have any effect in that regard. The parts are a one-off case. We try to help when we can, but parts which require dis-assembly are not provided as part of the warranty process and should not be considered as part of the regular warranty operation.

Our warranty policy remains the same as enclosed with the knives.

Thanks.

Kizer
 
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