New Rules for the Exchange forum - Feedback thread.

[otto]

Please bare in mind that this is Spark's first attempt at setting up rules for this new system. There was a reason that I avoided offering a suggestion for time between reposts when I posted this idea... that's because, on paper, it would be impossible to say.

Two weeks is the current default for shown threads in all subforums here at BF, so it makes a very logical starting place for the repost rule. Now that Spark and the other mods can get a sense of what to expect, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that number change sooner or later.



Also, a lot of the moderation under this new system will need to come from us, the community. When we see someone abusing the rules, all we need to do is flag one of their posts for moderation and walk away.

I have to agree to a point. If it ain't broke, dont "fix" it. The no reply for 72 hrs. is way too restrictive and will cause new folks looking to buy a knife confusion as most will look for a replay to thier question, and not in the OP.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Darkfin]

YMMV but I just want it to be known that I don't approve.

One would have thought you already expressed your disapproval in your last post when you called the latest changes "lame", but thanks for removing all doubt as to your actual approval status.

Someone should start a Poll thread on this specific issue, just for fun!

 

[Soulrack223]

One would have thought you already expressed your disapproval in your last post when you called the latest changes "lame", but thanks for removing all doubt as to your actual approval status.

Someone should start a Poll thread on this specific issue, just for fun!

There was feedback both in agreement and in opposition to what I had posted. I put in a lot more info as to why I feel the way I do. I paid $75 just last month, for the third year in a row and this is the feedback thread.

 

[Spark]

The new rules were fine but the newest changes are stupid in my opinion. I fail to see the why I'd pay money to be able to sell a knife with a once every two weeks bump. People buy what they see when they have got some money burning a hole in their pocket. As for moderating the exchange--it's excedingly simpler to look at when a thread was last bumped (within 72 hours or not) than it is to police every thread started by a seller to see that the same knife hasn't been listed in the past 2 weeks. The original changes were good but the latest changes are lame.

They are paying to sell the knife, not to bump it. You don't get to bump on eBay, nor do you get to bump on the AR15 classifieds, or on Subguns, or Craigslist, nor do you bump on any other classified system. Bumping isn't the service, selling is.

If it hasn't sold in 2 weeks, close the old thread and relist it. No big deal. Or don't, and let people find it through search. Whatever you want to do.

As for "simplicity", this is a hell of a lot simpler to me, looking as a buyer. Instead of wading through 20 pages of bumps trying to find something, buyers can leisurely browse through the number of pages they want to find the item. If they can't find it immediately, they search.

I don't think a lot of people like this system, I have noticed many people have just joined other forums because I don't think they are sure or like this forum any more. And that is not a good things because manufactures/dealers/makers will go where the people go...

I have bigger concerns than "other forums" - no offense. My primary concerns are making the most of the membership happy and being able to service them, not catering to people who bump all the time. If everyone decides to leave and goes somewhere else, they'll get to experience different rules when those sites admin's have to deal with the same problems we have.

Prior to this change, we literally had 3 pages of reports, per day, of people not following bump rules in the exchange areas. That's just bump rules. It got to the point where dealing with bumping was eating up more time than all the other problems combined. Sellers complaining about other sellers, people complaining that they were getting singled out, etc. All of that is gone; it's a level playing field again (until someone figures out how to abuse this system). On top of that, we no longer have to issue chatting infractions, ones on "email sent" or any of that garbage. Things just got very streamlined.

okay, there's been a mass exodus in less than two days

Really? Because my analytics are showing no significant drop in traffic for the for sale forums for that time period. At the end of two weeks if it's showing traffic has completely died in the For Sale forums, we can discuss changing it back, but for the last two days it's showing no real changes. If anything, it should show a drastic drop since things are much easier to find (or people have supposedly left in droves). Instead the traffic is in line with all the rest of the month.
Here's some stats:
Busse For Sale forum:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/analytics-forsale-busse.pdf
For Sale by Individuals Forum:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/analytics-forsale-individual.pdf

The traffic is the same, and forums backend user activity stats haven't dropped either. If there's a mass exodus, the data doesn't show it yet, and if that does turn out to be true over the long term, we can go back to the old style.

Like I posted before, I thought the initial changes were great, essentially what ar15.com does (which is a MASSIVE forum with tons of trial and error) but the no bumping, just create a new thread every 2 weeks for a knife and different threads for each knife, makes it harder to see what are active for sale threads and makes it harder to police. I'm active on several forums for knives, guns and flashlights. I have experience in how several for sale forums work and the newest bladeforums changes are not consistent with the different forums on the net. I've made sales to guys who joined simply to buy something but now I'm afraid it won't make sense or be too difficult to find the knife they're looking for to someone coming over from ar15.com or candlepower forums looking for a knife.

The Busse Knife group is the only thing keeping me here after the last change. I'll keep a Basic Membership for Busse as long as they're active here but if these changes become permanent I will be spending my money for sale privleges at one of the other knife forums next year instead of bladeforums. YMMV but I just want it to be known that I don't approve.

You do know that AR15.com coded up their own classified ads program because of the problems they were having with their own exchange section, right? On top of that, ARFCOM doesn't allow non-paying members to search past 30 days, or even have robust searching for non-paying members at all.

Furthermore, I don't see how it's going to be "too difficult to find the knife they're looking for" because if anything, it's easier. Sure, if they were never going to look past the first page, that might be the case, but instead of trying vainly to find a thread that's moved all over the place since they last looked at it, it's now still going to be in the same area. In addition, the search & subscription feature are still there. So perhaps I'm just not understanding how it's "more difficult" for someone to find for sale threads? I'm open to discussing it.

As far as "relisting" being too complicated, we'll have to see. If that time period is too short, we'll discuss it. I don't think it's too long at all - most classifieds allow listings for anywhere from 10 days (max for ebay) to 30 days (craigslist) to 90 days (subguns). Right now, we leave threads until they get pruned every couple years. It's not a big deal.

I have to agree to a point. If it ain't broke, dont "fix" it. The no reply for 72 hrs. is way too restrictive and will cause new folks looking to buy a knife confusion as most will look for a replay to thier question, and not in the OP.

Fortunately with the new setup, people can reply all they want to. No more having to worry about 72 hour reply times, or answering questions, or anything like that. Things got a lot simpler for everyone.

There was feedback both in agreement and in opposition to what I had posted. I put in a lot more info as to why I feel the way I do. I paid $75 just last month, for the third year in a row and this is the feedback thread.

Platinum memberships are $50, you must be thinking of a different site. Regardless, I value the feedback.

 

[norcalblacktail]

Dont like the new changes...they are just going to confuse people and make it harder to sell. I have also heard of many jumping ship to other forums because of all the changes and rules here. The rules are getting too complicated here and are causing people to go to forums. I really think we should go back to the old way.

The new rules were fine but the newest changes are stupid in my opinion. I fail to see the why I'd pay money to be able to sell a knife with a once every two weeks bump. People buy what they see when they have got some money burning a hole in their pocket. As for moderating the exchange--it's excedingly simpler to look at when a thread was last bumped (within 72 hours or not) than it is to police every thread started by a seller to see that the same knife hasn't been listed in the past 2 weeks. The original changes were good but the latest changes are lame.

+1

After reading Sparks above post I guess a trial period is fine to see how it goes. Maybe it is just the sudden change we all dont like.

 

[hardheart]

I think that ebay, craigslist, gunbroker, etc are good examples of how the inability to bump ads does not cause the sky to fall.

If someone depends on price drops and empty bumps to move product, then there are pricing and thread naming issues. Since no one can bump with this sort order, the only thing that moves you from the front page are new listings. There is also now no reason for buyers not to go a couple pages deep. It isn't less active or less interesting threads on the second page, it's stuff you missed since the last time you checked.

Want to find the most popular ad? Sort by views or number of posts. Want to go to the obscure ones? Reverse the sort order. Want a specific knife? Use the search function. Want to know what a specific member is selling? Search again, or sort by thread starter.

There really isn't a hindrance to buyers in the forum software. The only issue is lack of effort. Well now, a buyer who puts in minimal effort can check every few days and look at the first few pages. That still seems pretty convenient.

Reducing the cooldown time for a relist might be good - but it hasn't even been half a week yet, we don't know.

 

[hardheart]

Really? Because my analytics are showing no significant drop in traffic for the for sale forums for that time period. At the end of two weeks if it's showing traffic has completely died in the For Sale forums, we can discuss changing it back, but for the last two days it's showing no real changes. If anything, it should show a drastic drop since things are much easier to find (or people have supposedly left in droves). Instead the traffic is in line with all the rest of the month.
Here's some stats:
Busse For Sale forum:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/analytics-forsale-busse.pdf
For Sale by Individuals Forum:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/analytics-forsale-individual.pdf

The traffic is the same, and forums backend user activity stats haven't dropped either. If there's a mass exodus, the data doesn't show it yet, and if that does turn out to be true over the long term, we can go back to the old style.

I shoulda used a smiley, I was being facetious

 

[Darkfin]

I shoulda used a smiley, I was being facetious

INFRACTION for failing to properly use a smiley!

 

[Spark]

I shoulda used a smiley, I was being facetious

Sorry man, I should have known. I'm amazed by some of the responses to this.

Seriously guys, the sky is NOT falling. I'm not being an a-hole about it either, all I'm asking is that you give it a chance and see how it works. The people who've been most inconvenienced by this are those who have long threads that rely on a bunch of replies, like the lanyard makers and certain knifemakers. If your listings contain a bunch of stuff, consider breaking them down a bit.

Everything else is open for discussion; what I ask is that you show some patience and see how this works. If it doesn't, no lasting harm done.

 

[Soulrack223]

You're right in a lot of your points, Spark. I'm sure I'll get used to it either way. Thanks.

 

[batosai117]

I think I may like the newest change after I get to repost my knife that I had for sale...

So now that I've read and re-read the newest change, we CAN answer questions and post price drops and add pics upon request all IN the sale thread now that bumping doesn't work, right?

So, the thread will still be in BOLD with a new reply it just won't jump to the top like it did before?

If so, I think my vote may change from "nay" to "yay"

 

[Fascion]

Dont like the new changes...they are just going to confuse people and make it harder to sell. I have also heard of many jumping ship to other forums because of all the changes and rules here. The rules are getting too complicated here and are causing people to go to forums. I really think we should go back to the old way.

The Halloween update to the rules certainly did complicate the system considerably. I had to read over them twice before I was even remotely comfortable looking at The Exchange again. Now that they have been modified for the purposes of this test, I find them to be much clearer and far more lenient to both buyers and sellers.

As with any major change, expect an adjustment period. While it may seem confusing at first, it should be much more straightforward than the old way. In turn, we are all given much more freedom within The Exchange, thanks to greatly relaxed rules. Best of all, if you don't like the new system, the old is only a couple of clicks away.



As Spark said, have some patience. In a few weeks we may all be wondering how we ever got along under the old system.

This reminds me of when I ordered my Fiddeback Karda earlier this year. Prior to that, I had been using a Bark River Pro-Scalpel II for many months. When it first arrived I was disappointed; it just didn't feel right. After using it for a few days it started to grow on me and it is now hands down my favorite knife.

And to share another personal experience... for any sellers who worry about the lack of bumping potentially hindering sales, earlier this year I also posted a washer and dryer on Craigslist. While they sold very quickly, I was amazed (perturbed might be a better word ) by the fact that three weeks later I was still getting emails about them.

 

[Fascion]

So now that I've read and re-read the newest change, we CAN answer questions and post price drops and add pics upon request all IN the sale thread now that bumping doesn't work, right?

So, the thread will still be in BOLD with a new reply it just won't jump to the top like it did before?

Yep, you can now post in The Exchange until you are blue in the face, if you so desire. :thumbup:


And yes, threads with new replies will still show in bold. They just wont be moved to the top.

On that note, perhaps it's worth reposting here what I did in a thread from yesterday.

• Threads which were created since your last visit will always appear in bold font before those you have already seen.
• Like new threads, those which have received new replies since your last visit will appear in bold font, but will remain where they were originally.
• Threads which existed at the time of your last visit will appear in normal font.
• Threads you have not been to before will always appear in the 'unvisited link' color (blue by browser default.)
• Threads which you have been to before will always appear in the 'visited link' color (purple by browser default) even when they contain new replies (and thus, are bold'd.)

 

[Kiah]

The people who've been most inconvenienced by this are those who have long threads that rely on a bunch of replies

Very true and those seem to be the most vocal against it right now. Sheath makers, lanyard makers, dealers, etc. have been using the individual forums and relying on "email Sent", "can you make one like this", "got it Today", and such to keep their threads bouncing back up to the top. The individual forums weren't meant for this, and it's clearly against the old rules, but it's been allowed anyway because it was the only real option without ticking a bunch of people off.

With the Makers' Market getting moved back to the Exchange, doodad makers can sell in the Makers' G&G forum where it belongs. This will let those makers have less thread turnover because they're not competing with individuals for listing space, It'll let buyers go to that forum when they're looking for member made stuff, and it'll do away with the complaints from individual sellers that people are running businesses out of the Individual FS forums.

This setup is a lot better for everyone as long as everyone posts where they should. The problem is that people have gotten complacent posting in the wrong forums and relying on chatter to keep them visible. This solves that problem and when everyone gets sorted out to where they actually belong, I think it's gonna make a lot more sense to those who are complaining now.

 

[bhyde]

To be honest, I didn't like the new format either..Until I used this trick.
Just click on the "Last Post" as in my pic and it resorts the list. It is virtually the same as it was before.

 

[SharpByCoop]

It's a good, no, GREAT change. Don't let the tail wag the dog.

Coop

 

[Thaumaturgist]

Just want to put my input as a buyer in. I REALLY like the new changes. I think I can find what I want much easier, and I usually subscribe to anything i want to watch, so I still get updated when/if something changes. It's all :thumbup: from this buyer.

 

[rprocter]

Spark, all this has me confused as to exactly what is or is not allowed.
I'm of reasonable intelligence so i'll bet many others, if not confused, likely have mis-interpreted these convoluted changes.
The forums i am concerned about are the Knifemakers For Sale: Folders; Fixed Blades. I've bought about 100 knives in those 2 forums in the last 3 1/2 years, partly because i visit these forums often because i have enjoyed the chat and sense of community that is thus imparted.
As i understand it, i can no longer post in a thread in which i definitely do not intend to buy the knife. Sometimes i have posted with no intention of buying, but the response by the knifemaker or another member has given me a change of mind and i ended up buying the knife.
I also understand the changes to mean i cannot post back in the thread when i have received the knife to say received and how i find the knife to be.
Anybody with marketing experience knows that sales are affected by ease and tenor of comminication.
The results of these changes will be less knife sales in these 2 forums, and sales in general will take longer.
I already have lost my desire to visit these forums and see what new knives have been posted because i no longer am allowed to say anything about them.
The whole BF experience is changing from a relaxed friendly community to an uptight, over-regulated, fearful place.
Too bad, we had a great community going here.
roland procter

 

[Kiah]

Spark, all this has me confused as to exactly what is or is not allowed.
I'm of reasonable intelligence so i'll bet many others, if not confused, likely have mis-interpreted these convoluted changes.
The forums i am concerned about are the Knifemakers For Sale: Folders; Fixed Blades. I've bought about 100 knives in those 2 forums in the last 3 1/2 years, partly because i visit these forums often because i have enjoyed the chat and sense of community that is thus imparted.
As i understand it, i can no longer post in a thread in which i definitely do not intend to buy the knife. Sometimes i have posted with no intention of buying, but the response by the knifemaker or another member has given me a change of mind and i ended up buying the knife.
I also understand the changes to mean i cannot post back in the thread when i have received the knife to say received and how i find the knife to be.
Anybody with marketing experience knows that sales are affected by ease and tenor of comminication.
The results of these changes will be less knife sales in these 2 forums, and sales in general will take longer.
I already have lost my desire to visit these forums and see what new knives have been posted because i no longer am allowed to say anything about them.
The whole BF experience is changing from a relaxed friendly community to an uptight, over-regulated, fearful place.
Too bad, we had a great community going here.
roland procter

Roland, that was with the first rules change. That's been done away with now. With the new rules in place, you can continue to comment and ask questions in the makers' for sale threads with no worries of infractions (other than derogatory comments obviously). The BF experience has now gotten more relaxed, not less. The makers' forum is back to the way it was before and the rest of the FS forums are more relaxed now. The only possible negative (depending on opinions) difference is that threads won't be bumped.

 

[T.A.DAVISON]

Spark, all this has me confused as to exactly what is or is not allowed.
I'm of reasonable intelligence so i'll bet many others, if not confused, likely have mis-interpreted these convoluted changes.
The forums i am concerned about are the Knifemakers For Sale: Folders; Fixed Blades. I've bought about 100 knives in those 2 forums in the last 3 1/2 years, partly because i visit these forums often because i have enjoyed the chat and sense of community that is thus imparted.
As i understand it, i can no longer post in a thread in which i definitely do not intend to buy the knife. Sometimes i have posted with no intention of buying, but the response by the knifemaker or another member has given me a change of mind and i ended up buying the knife.
I also understand the changes to mean i cannot post back in the thread when i have received the knife to say received and how i find the knife to be.
Anybody with marketing experience knows that sales are affected by ease and tenor of comminication.
The results of these changes will be less knife sales in these 2 forums, and sales in general will take longer.
I already have lost my desire to visit these forums and see what new knives have been posted because i no longer am allowed to say anything about them.
The whole BF experience is changing from a relaxed friendly community to an uptight, over-regulated, fearful place.
Too bad, we had a great community going here.
roland procter

Roland,

Some of these last changes made it better for us all.
You need to check out what some of these guys tell you to do - such as setting the way you want the threads to show up?
Such as by last post? - OR last thread listed?

You have choices now!!!! It's good - :thumbup:
And you can reply all you like and not get a ding!!!:thumbup:

Just do some reading here what to do?

Todd


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