I realize that there are alot of repeat questions... but for every repeat question do we even know how many people actually use the search function properly and don't ever bother to ask the question??? my local offroading forum (ran and created by the offroading club I helped create) has 2 ways of accessing areas of the forum... one is by being a paid club member (supporting memer) the other is by posting in the general stuff to get enough posts to gain access to post in other areas... this may be a way around the paid member only section to which you may be forcing away longtime members who don't feel that they make enough use of the forum to warrant supporting the forum... why buy a tool that i'm going to use once every other year when i've got a buddy who will lend me one... when I started, I read all but one of the stickies, got confused, realized that there was alot i didn't know (more than i first thought) then read through all 7 pages of threads... it wasn't untill i read the post above that let me know I could change how many posts were visable... I've done alot of searches... both with the forum search tool, and the google search tool that was created... i bookmarked it so i didn't have to look it up... once you get the hang of what you're looking for then it's easier to search... but there is a bit of a learning curve associated with what terms to use when searching for something... and if you don't use the right words then a search will yield nothing... the point i'm rambling on and trying to make is: with a higher traffic yields a higher volume of repeats... watching cars go down the freeway 30-40 years ago and you would see alot of the same vehicles... but they would be intersperced and differnt colors... do the same thing today and it seems like every third car is a red honda civic... just because there are more cars on the road, and more users joining the forum... with the availability of information today and the ease of aquiring tools it's more common for people to look at making something they want themselves... when i created the account i thought that it would be a couple months and i'd be making high quality blades and giving them to family members... possibly selling them... now i realize that even if i do have some modicum of natural talent that lets me excell quickly it'll probably be a full year before i can trust my skill to do either... longer if i'm no good and just too stubborn to give up.... lol... adding a restricted area and possibly putting a post count minimum on it for posting access would probably be a good idea... hopefully that will spur newer user who cant post to just spend time reading and researching what the more experienced users have done... but there will be post count padders who jump from one area to this one and get access as a brand new builder...
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Newbies Forum - and Poll
- Thread starter Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
- Start date
Fred.Rowe
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- May 2, 2004
- Messages
- 6,848
Not meant to imply there is but one way to apprentice; there are many. I served my apprenticeship by reading and doing, working by myself. You may have worked with someone who showed you the basics; then helped you to get your own direction.
It could have been better put by saying, learn to understand the basics to where you are conversing using informed questions.
Along this same vane, there is no time limit to an apprenticeship. I know people who show amazing skills in a short amount of time.
Come to the table with some knowledge otherwise do yourself a favor and watch and listen; This is true when trying to learn most anything that takes skill.
Fred
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2012
- Messages
- 88
As a newbie and hopefully one that's not one of the gross offenders mentioned in this thread, I am all for a newbies forum. We aren't paid members and we aren't owed advice. I have thoroughly benefited from the stickies and I have read over a few of them many times. I appreciate all the advice that I have been given and will probably need more. There's only so much information on knife making out there on the web and a large portion of it is complete crap, so having a seasoned community to tap is an incredibly useful tool. I can see the risk of having a newbie forum that has "the blind leading the blind" but as long as the seasoned knife makers drop in now and again it shouldn't be a problem. If new makers trust the advice of other new makers over the advice of a seasoned maker, it will show up in their final product and they will just have to learn the hard way. Besides, new makers can still see the experienced forum and learn from the discussions in it.
I spend less time on Shop Talk because of the repetitive basic questions and the shocking influx of people who present shanks and awful knives.
The first group are either lazy or unaware and should simply be sent to the appropriate sticky. Usually though, a basic question becomes a long and unnecessary thread.
The second group is a surprising turn. These shank makers tend to proudly present edged objects with a clear lack of basic knowledge (metallurgy, design, function) and do not seem to want sincere feedback and frankly don't deserve the time.
There is so much information available free of charge that anyone, really anyone..., should take the time to learn the basic characteristics of a good knife before presenting one. Just to be clear, this is far different from a post with an image, from a beginner asking for help with a specific area of trouble.
I don't think a change in the forum set up will help this. A separate section for the well informed will simply draw the same crowd. Why post in a newb forum when so many of these posters believe their work is gorgeous. To be clear...I'm not writing about good knives with imperfections, I'm pointing to images of knives (sort of knives) that makes most wonder if the poster is playing a prank.
I like the pay system as is. I think well intentioned beginners can progress rapidly and access to help should still be free for greater awareness of a well made knife, drawing more people into the field either as makers or buyers and as a way for a new pro to establish their teaching skills and develop an online reputation.
The first group are either lazy or unaware and should simply be sent to the appropriate sticky. Usually though, a basic question becomes a long and unnecessary thread.
The second group is a surprising turn. These shank makers tend to proudly present edged objects with a clear lack of basic knowledge (metallurgy, design, function) and do not seem to want sincere feedback and frankly don't deserve the time.
There is so much information available free of charge that anyone, really anyone..., should take the time to learn the basic characteristics of a good knife before presenting one. Just to be clear, this is far different from a post with an image, from a beginner asking for help with a specific area of trouble.
I don't think a change in the forum set up will help this. A separate section for the well informed will simply draw the same crowd. Why post in a newb forum when so many of these posters believe their work is gorgeous. To be clear...I'm not writing about good knives with imperfections, I'm pointing to images of knives (sort of knives) that makes most wonder if the poster is playing a prank.
I like the pay system as is. I think well intentioned beginners can progress rapidly and access to help should still be free for greater awareness of a well made knife, drawing more people into the field either as makers or buyers and as a way for a new pro to establish their teaching skills and develop an online reputation.
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There should be a Newbie sub forum under Shop Talk. Shop Talk should be left the way it is. All the NEWBIES will POST in the NEWBIE SUB FORUM, and LOOK for good information in Shop Talk. Newbie questions should only be asked in the Newbie sub forum. This will work, because in the few short months I have been here, I have been helped a number of times. Most members here will help you out with anything you need. Bladeforums is full of great people. HOWEVER, I don't think you should need a paid membership to post in Shoptalk. This will likely drive people away. Like someone else already said, a high traffic forum is a good forum.
james terrio
Sharpest Knife in the Light Socket
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2010
- Messages
- 22,618
Static threads, stickies and FAQ's are overlooked by a huge portion of new members. Ask any mod of any sort of forum/chat-room, or anyone who runs their own website. In my opinion their value is mainly as an archived, ready-to-share link to post, instead of having to type out the whole answer again.
There already is... sort of. Our friend the Count has a Standard Reply listing dozens of links and resources that he put together on his own time and shares freely almost every time a newb asks "the same old questions".
I appreciate his effort and commitment to sharing it, but like the stickies themselves, I strongly doubt it has much effect.
That could be much more effective than yet another sticky no one pays attention to, and it could work on all aspects of the forum, not just ST. But now we're talking about a coding issue, not organization or a policy question. I have no clue if the software that "runs" BF supports that, and frankly, changes in the way things actually run around here are not something to hold your breath waiting for.
There already is... sort of. Our friend the Count has a Standard Reply listing dozens of links and resources that he put together on his own time and shares freely almost every time a newb asks "the same old questions".
I appreciate his effort and commitment to sharing it, but like the stickies themselves, I strongly doubt it has much effect.
That could be much more effective than yet another sticky no one pays attention to, and it could work on all aspects of the forum, not just ST. But now we're talking about a coding issue, not organization or a policy question. I have no clue if the software that "runs" BF supports that, and frankly, changes in the way things actually run around here are not something to hold your breath waiting for.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
- Messages
- 3,375
A sub forum for experienced makers makes the most sense. An area where more technical or less common methods and problems could be discussed. Membership there would be a privilege controlled by invite, possibly by nomination by those who form the initial group. Reading for all posting would require the privilege.
I don't think the newbies would suffer from lack of answers. There are some members here who have always been very generous with their time and knowledge to help those with less experience. I thank everyone of them for helping me. I am still learning and getting better, I hate to think where I would be or if I would still be making knives if they hadn't been their for me and others on my journey.
I don't think the newbies would suffer from lack of answers. There are some members here who have always been very generous with their time and knowledge to help those with less experience. I thank everyone of them for helping me. I am still learning and getting better, I hate to think where I would be or if I would still be making knives if they hadn't been their for me and others on my journey.
- Joined
- May 28, 2005
- Messages
- 5,081
Id say require new members to be here at least a couple months before they are able to post in Shop Talk. They can search and read but not post. I see alot of the "I want to make a knife, I want to make a knife!" guys are brand new and dont take the time to search.
No- I strongly disagree and though this isn't on the table I'll list at least two reasons why I don't agree:
1. There are beginners who actually do their study and practice prior to asking a good question (used to be more common). Not everyone is a nested bird with the beak wide open.
2 We have all seen talented makers who decide to join the forum...make them wait? No way. Jury trial for posting? No.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,238
I'm getting tired of the new people that show up and want to know what steel their piece of porch railing is and after being told by experienced people that they should get some real steel get indignant that we are somehow oppressing them by suggesting that they scrap it and get some suitable material for making their "knifes" from. move the rabble off to a newbs subforum, and have one where there is actually a paid membership requirement and you will weed out some of the idiots who have nothing invested, and are unwilling to spend an hour or three reading the stickies. This used to be a great forum, but it is mostly yammerheads who think they are special because they can grind a bevel onto a piece of 1/4 inch steel with an angle grinder (and will post a 5 page WIP on how you can be just like them!)
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Kevin Cross
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2006
- Messages
- 865
I've been around for about six years but don't post very often. I tend to learn more by reading and watching but I will admit that I too have seen ST going downhill and several makers who I respect and whose posts I look for to teach me things are leaving. I think that the sub-forum for experienced makers has merit and if Nathan's suggestion for "gift" memberships for the very talented makers is put in place, count me in. I think that newbies should be able to READ in the new sub-forum but not post. They can post in the regular ST. As far as answering newbie questions, we can't leave it all to the most experienced makers. It seems to me that you don't start kindergarten with a college professor for a teacher. By this I mean that as a newbie I recognized names like Loveless, Moran, Bump, Fogg, Hanson, Goddard, Fisk, Hancock and many others but quite frankly, I did not have the rudimentary knowledge of knifemaking and /or the experience to really appreciate what these makers could have told me. I simply would have been wasting their time and frustrating myself because I would have been trying to run before I could walk. I had to read the stickies and make mistakes, then re-read the stickies to figure out what I did wrong and try it again. After doing that mant many times I had a much better idea of what to do and what not to do and could actually ask semi-intelligent questions and understand the answers. That being said, there are numerous makers here, most of us part-time but dedicated who could and should be the ones answering the newbie questions. This would allow us to give back some of what has already been shared with us on Bladeforums.
Just my .02.
Kevin
Just my .02.
Kevin
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2003
- Messages
- 1,017
I fail to see the stigma of new knifemakers posting in a new-to-knifemaking forum.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2006
- Messages
- 3,494
Dear Friends,
Has some one actually analyzed the demographics of the "pesky newbies" as to what percentage are unpaid and what percentage have some level of paid membership? I'm just asking because it might be a bummer if all these changes were made and a new paid membership forum still had the same issues. For my part I have been a paying member (the $10 level initially) practically upon my discovery of this awesome forum a handful of years ago. It was such a new world to me then that I spent months just sorting out the basics of the terminology and lingo and tools and such. I'm sure I asked my share of ignorant questions too, even still do. Sorry guys!
Would making changes such as are being explored here really halt the march of new aspirants and/or the perceived exodus of the "masters" and bring them back? Surely this is not the only reason they stopped participating as much as they used to. For instance, I believe I saw some folks drop out on a couple of occasions when there were disappointing management issues being implemented. I also saw abrasive encounters between veterans of different "camps" or methodologies or mindsets result in withdrawals.
Some of this could be a little bit of the chicken or the egg. In general, I've seen folks change their manner of participation in groups when their needs changed, not only when the groups changed. I'm convinced many makers reach a level of accomplishment in the craft to the point where they no longer have the time, need or inclination to participate as they once did. Lets face it, you razzle-dazzle us with your excellence and develop your reputation and client list, your priorities and needs change. Of course when they leave the group, the group does change. When a number of advanced makers no longer need the forum and leave, naturally the percentages of "members" less developed in the craft goes up.
Just to reiterate, I wonder if this line of inquiry is the most spot-on one, or if there might be more appropriate questions...and are we the ones to ask them? After all the only real change we as subscribers can effect is with the quality of our participation (or lack there of).
Happy 5th Day of Christmas!
Aloha, Phil
Has some one actually analyzed the demographics of the "pesky newbies" as to what percentage are unpaid and what percentage have some level of paid membership? I'm just asking because it might be a bummer if all these changes were made and a new paid membership forum still had the same issues. For my part I have been a paying member (the $10 level initially) practically upon my discovery of this awesome forum a handful of years ago. It was such a new world to me then that I spent months just sorting out the basics of the terminology and lingo and tools and such. I'm sure I asked my share of ignorant questions too, even still do. Sorry guys!
Would making changes such as are being explored here really halt the march of new aspirants and/or the perceived exodus of the "masters" and bring them back? Surely this is not the only reason they stopped participating as much as they used to. For instance, I believe I saw some folks drop out on a couple of occasions when there were disappointing management issues being implemented. I also saw abrasive encounters between veterans of different "camps" or methodologies or mindsets result in withdrawals.
Some of this could be a little bit of the chicken or the egg. In general, I've seen folks change their manner of participation in groups when their needs changed, not only when the groups changed. I'm convinced many makers reach a level of accomplishment in the craft to the point where they no longer have the time, need or inclination to participate as they once did. Lets face it, you razzle-dazzle us with your excellence and develop your reputation and client list, your priorities and needs change. Of course when they leave the group, the group does change. When a number of advanced makers no longer need the forum and leave, naturally the percentages of "members" less developed in the craft goes up.
Just to reiterate, I wonder if this line of inquiry is the most spot-on one, or if there might be more appropriate questions...and are we the ones to ask them? After all the only real change we as subscribers can effect is with the quality of our participation (or lack there of).
Happy 5th Day of Christmas!
Aloha, Phil
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2011
- Messages
- 1,396
I am not sure what the best answer is for this. I see the point of several of the different views and like many things in life there isnt always the one and great answer. I will add that if it wasnt for this community and for shop talk I would not have gone from not even knowing difference in steels (besides stainless and carbon) to being able to forge and harden my own blades (or stock removal). I do not have the ability right now to travel to places or take the time to do apprenticeships of any kind even though there are some great knife makers within a few hours of where I live (wheeler, straub to name a couple). I have asked my fair share of stupid or repetitive questions in the past and probably future (sorry about that). Only thing I will say about that is one way of looking at it what is the new guy gonna ask and how will it be perceived by the more experience person.
For example when I first started I asked about using old saw blade steel and went down that road. Now to the more experienced guy that probably sounds like a silly question depending on what your view point is. Now a year later I am asking what method is best for fine tuning a hamon with temperature and clay and soak times and what not. Now this second question could also be perceived as repetitive and annoying if it was asked to the guy that has been doing them for the last 20 years. Food for thought I guess.
One thing I would change is in another forum for another craft we had a critique section where you posted finished products full well knowing in this section people were going to give there honest opinion on what was good and what was bad and needed improvement. If you didnt want this type of input you kept out of that section of the forum. Some good experienced people and not so experienced people put there input into threads in that section. Noone got annoyed by what anyone said as long as it was constructive and what not. I think if we had a section like that it would help maybe.
For example when I first started I asked about using old saw blade steel and went down that road. Now to the more experienced guy that probably sounds like a silly question depending on what your view point is. Now a year later I am asking what method is best for fine tuning a hamon with temperature and clay and soak times and what not. Now this second question could also be perceived as repetitive and annoying if it was asked to the guy that has been doing them for the last 20 years. Food for thought I guess.
One thing I would change is in another forum for another craft we had a critique section where you posted finished products full well knowing in this section people were going to give there honest opinion on what was good and what was bad and needed improvement. If you didnt want this type of input you kept out of that section of the forum. Some good experienced people and not so experienced people put there input into threads in that section. Noone got annoyed by what anyone said as long as it was constructive and what not. I think if we had a section like that it would help maybe.
Perhaps a set of 'canned' answers (not only reference to stickies) would help. Neophyte: Can I make a knife using steel from (Lowes etc.)? Answer: If you are satisfied with a knife that might be considered decent during the dark ages, go for it (reference to making a knife out of mild steel sticky). However, most professional makers would suggest starting with a modern knife steel like 1084, doing the best job you can on it (reference to first knife sticky), having it professionally heat treated if you do not have the skill to do it yourselff (reference to HT sticky), and hopefully end up with something that won't embarrass you as a first knife. etc..
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
Moderator
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2004
- Messages
- 38,508
Just to clear up one thing that has been mentioned about newbies with paid memberships - If a non-experienced type thread ( My first knife, whadayathink?" is posted in the Experienced and Learning Knifemakers sub-forum, the moderator will move it to the Shop Talk forum. This will keep the page in Ex&LK cleaner. The reason that "Learning Knifemakers" is included is that some newer makers have more advanced questions, and are not the people who have caused this problem. Those questions and/or projects would be welcome in Ex&LK.
The type of threads that should stay in Shop Talk:
My first knife
Can I use this to make a knife?
Where can I get...?
How can I harden this knife?
Starter grinder and equipment questions.
General beginner questions.
The type of threads that should be in an Experienced and Learning Knifemakers forum:
My latest Crushed "Ws" billet.
Project builds like the ones Patrice, Nick, Salem, and many others post.
Metallurgy and HT questions beyond the basics covered in the stickies.
Equipment building threads.
Steel selection questions that are task specific. (eg. CPM3 vs CPM-D2 for a chopper)
Newer makers ( with paid membership) that have a question or comment that isn't just a beginner level type. (The advantage of it being asked here is that it won't get an answer from twenty newbies who have never done what they will post as the answer.)
What will be missing from Shop Talk - Very little.
Advanced projects will most likely be posted in the Ex&LK forum.
Advanced metallurgy and HT procedures threads will most likely be posted in Ex&LK.
Advanced equipment builds will be most likely be posted in Ex&LK.
Other than that:
The newbies will still post their same questions....and over half of the answers will be from other newbies.
There will still be lots of first knife WIP threads. Some will be quite good, and some will be horrible.
There will still be people who want to know if rust on a file proves it is good steel.....and people who will say that is true.
There will still be experienced people to point to the stickies, and answer the basic questions.
What will be missing in the Experienced and Learning Knifemakers forum:
Questions being answered by people who have no clue about the answer. ( and hopefully fewer unnecessary answers)
"Wow, nice knife!!!" replies to a KSO thread.
Most of the Newbie questions and WIP threads. ( some will still show up, but can be answered or moved, as fits the question).
A good bit of the tension between old and young makers. ( Yeah, we will still have some folks who are curmudgeons, but thats life).
Clutter....take a look at the pages in Shop Talk....it is full of nearly needless posts. Sometimes there are five pages of replies to a simple question that was answered in post #3 or #4. How many folks doest it take to say, "No", when a person asks if Lowes steel is OK to make a knife from????
The type of threads that should stay in Shop Talk:
My first knife
Can I use this to make a knife?
Where can I get...?
How can I harden this knife?
Starter grinder and equipment questions.
General beginner questions.
The type of threads that should be in an Experienced and Learning Knifemakers forum:
My latest Crushed "Ws" billet.
Project builds like the ones Patrice, Nick, Salem, and many others post.
Metallurgy and HT questions beyond the basics covered in the stickies.
Equipment building threads.
Steel selection questions that are task specific. (eg. CPM3 vs CPM-D2 for a chopper)
Newer makers ( with paid membership) that have a question or comment that isn't just a beginner level type. (The advantage of it being asked here is that it won't get an answer from twenty newbies who have never done what they will post as the answer.)
What will be missing from Shop Talk - Very little.
Advanced projects will most likely be posted in the Ex&LK forum.
Advanced metallurgy and HT procedures threads will most likely be posted in Ex&LK.
Advanced equipment builds will be most likely be posted in Ex&LK.
Other than that:
The newbies will still post their same questions....and over half of the answers will be from other newbies.
There will still be lots of first knife WIP threads. Some will be quite good, and some will be horrible.
There will still be people who want to know if rust on a file proves it is good steel.....and people who will say that is true.
There will still be experienced people to point to the stickies, and answer the basic questions.
What will be missing in the Experienced and Learning Knifemakers forum:
Questions being answered by people who have no clue about the answer. ( and hopefully fewer unnecessary answers)
"Wow, nice knife!!!" replies to a KSO thread.
Most of the Newbie questions and WIP threads. ( some will still show up, but can be answered or moved, as fits the question).
A good bit of the tension between old and young makers. ( Yeah, we will still have some folks who are curmudgeons, but thats life).
Clutter....take a look at the pages in Shop Talk....it is full of nearly needless posts. Sometimes there are five pages of replies to a simple question that was answered in post #3 or #4. How many folks doest it take to say, "No", when a person asks if Lowes steel is OK to make a knife from????
- Joined
- May 4, 2009
- Messages
- 1,036
I agree with many others that if you are tired of answering or reading newbie questions, which by the way these are questions they have to ask. Just don't answer, it's your choice. As I see it this is not the major problem. I have talked to many of the makers who don't post much any more. What is really annoying are the guys who have made a couple of knives, claim to be knife makers, post heat treat info with no hands on experience of the subject, spend more time in front of the PC than a grinder, and bitch about poor grammar....I have personally helped many newbies who were directed to the stickies. I'm sure many others have done the same. But, unfortunately there are those who contribute nothing or even worse....false info. This is why I believe it should be separated by Pro and hobby. This forums greatest asset is the experienced makers, and those who are truly passionate. Maybe separation will weed out the trolls and Google masters.
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2002
- Messages
- 5,703
Thanks for claryfing things Stacy. I think it is starting to take shape. Nobody said it would be easy or perfect but I am happy to see some wanting to try and make things better. This is a great place that helped me (and many others I am sure) discover my passion for making knives and I think it deserves better than simply watching it slowly degrade without doing anything about it.
Greg...(sorry I can't find the rolleyes icon)
Greg...(sorry I can't find the rolleyes icon)