Newbies Forum - and Poll

[12345678910]

I'm getting tired of the new people that show up and want to know what steel their piece of porch railing is and after being told by experienced people that they should get some real steel get indignant that we are somehow oppressing them by suggesting that they scrap it and get some suitable material for making their "knifes" from. move the rabble off to a newbs subforum, and have one where there is actually a paid membership requirement and you will weed out some of the idiots who have nothing invested, and are unwilling to spend an hour or three reading the stickies. This used to be a great forum, but it is mostly yammerheads who think they are special because they can grind a bevel onto a piece of 1/4 inch steel with an angle grinder (and will post a 5 page WIP on how you can be just like them!)

-Page

This is true.

I have 2 recent examples in mind, but this is mostly attitude, not lack of knowledge that burns me and I don't know you you can manage that.

Usually they just don't last.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

I suspect this is all too late. Due to a lack of action by management in many intelligent threads that were derailed by unruly, disruptive personalities, countless valuable voices threw their hands in the air and departed. It was nearly impossible to achieve insightful discourse in this arena because the lowest common denominators were allowed free reign.

Chuck Bybee was completely correct - anyone wishing to research this further need do no more than contact a handful of what were once prominent voices here that are now silent to understand.

The insistence of a paid membership to post a photo of work is altogether absurd, as well. You can't sweepingly charge makers for content under the auspices that they benefit without seeing that we ALL benefit from their very presence!

Are new maker posts tedious? Sure. What happens when there's none left to answer their questions but just slightly less-than-new makers? Looks like that's where this forum is right now...

 

[Shawn Hatcher]

The insistence of a paid membership to post a photo of work is altogether absurd, as well. You can't sweepingly charge makers for content under the auspices that they benefit without seeing that we ALL benefit from their very presence!

Hear, hear.

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

Somehow, this all begins to feel like the 2011 KITH.

I agree that calling them newbies, newb, or whatever all seems a bit insulting. We were ALL there at one point and need to remember that. Also, technology changes and people might be asking just in case the answer is different than it was last time the question was asked.

I'd love to see a separate subforum just for WIPs. I've posted it before and still think it would be a great idea. Not a sticky that contains a select few, but a subforum of WIPs and nothing else. A beginner (or intermediate/expert) could spend hours just observing WIPs without having to dig through the hundreds of other threads.

 

[tryppyr]

All right, I'll say what I have to say plainly. I don't think any of the approaches outlined so far is going to work.

I pointed out the comparison to the 2011 KITH because there, as here, we had "experienced" makers crying foul that their quality products might end up being exchanged or compared to first knives from newbies. It was pretty obvious to me they had forgotten or forsaken the spirit of the KITH... an open exchange. The same spirit defines the forums here... open exchange. But now some want to shut down that open exchange. Any why? Because some well respected makers decided they have better things to do that help newbies? When is that NOT going to be the case?

Do any of you honestly believe that separating the experienced makers from the newbies will keep the experienced folks around indefinitely? How long before the top tier makers decide they've had enough of trying to educate the middle tier makers? How long before we start seeing the arguments erupt among those that think they know more than they do?

Honestly, at some level you just have to expect that some people are going to go and others are going to stay, and that you won't always like the way that wave breaks.

- Greg

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Honestly, at some level you just have to expect that some people are going to go and others are going to stay, and that you won't always like the way that wave breaks.

- Greg

It's not quite that simple. There are plenty of other forums that these very same makers ARE offering their input to the inexperienced - just not this one.

I can't speaker for the KITH analogy, as I wasn't participating in it, although I suspect I'm in agreement with your sentiment, Greg. It's supposed to be about the sharing, NOT the knife!

I, for one, miss participating in this forum, but I will continue to maintain a very small presence here. It's been proven to me over the last seven years that there's little interest in avoiding chaos.

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Do any of you honestly believe that separating the experienced makers from the newbies will keep the experienced folks around indefinitely?

Indefinitely, maybe not. Longer if they feel that they are educating folks who are serious about the craft and wiling to do some research and work at it, definitely.

How long before the top tier makers decide they've had enough of trying to educate the middle tier makers?

Basically the same response as above.

Matt, if this is where the forum is at, isn't worth a try?
Does this have to be so complicated folks?

 

[Dixieblade57]

I suspect this is all too late. Due to a lack of action by management in many intelligent threads that were derailed by unruly, disruptive personalities, countless valuable voices threw their hands in the air and departed. It was nearly impossible to achieve insightful discourse in this arena because the lowest common denominators were allowed free reign.

Chuck Bybee was completely correct - anyone wishing to research this further need do no more than contact a handful of what were once prominent voices here that are now silent to understand.

The insistence of a paid membership to post a photo of work is altogether absurd, as well. You can't sweepingly charge makers for content under the auspices that they benefit without seeing that we ALL benefit from their very presence!

Are new maker posts tedious? Sure. What happens when there's none left to answer their questions but just slightly less-than-new makers? Looks like that's where this forum is right now...

Be careful Matthew the ole black ball will get thrown at you to!

I debated whether to say anything about this idea and if so what to say about all this! But what the hey as some of you may know I usually speak my piece. The last time I spoke my piece here,it was about rules and whether some things were better because they were paid for. I was politely told maybe my money and I wasn't needed on this forum.

So I stayed away for several months and have just recently returned. I think had this been a pay for area (Shop Talk) when I first came here, I would have never learned as much as I have.
Now I consider my self a hobbyist mostly, I am limited by my income and sometimes by my health and life just seems to get in the way of my knife making a lot sometimes. However anything I do, I want to do right! Having access to this part of the forum as well as others has been a blessing. I have learned countless things and made some new and good friends along the way as well.

I don't it think it really matters what I think on this subject because I feel the fix is already in the works. Even though when I read through the 4 pages of comments it runs about 50/50 in my opinion.

These guys that seem to annoy everyone, the majority are looking for real help! There are some who no matter what you give them are never going to get it! It is the older more experienced makers who really help with the knowledge. If your tired of the same old question don't answer the question at all. But as I look down the list of names on those four pages I see some that have started after me and some have made there selves a name, but all of them were newbies at one point and asking those same dumb questions. I always heard the only dumb question was the one you forgot to ask!

I feel like if you head in this direction of making it a pay for service, when you get this part of the forum, where no one is involved but the most experienced then that is all you will have! A bunch of guys sitting around that don't need to ask questions and no one to impart there knowledge too! If you feel you just got to break it up leave it open for the less experienced.

Most forums have a beginners section, and I frequent them often as I am a member of several knife forums. I look at the "Beginner Section", partly because even though I have been at this for sometime I still consider myself a beginner as I feel I have not learned every thing there is too know. Often I do know enough to answer a question or two there. I do frequent the more experienced sections and if I ask a question there I try to ask a more quality question, but I ask a question because I can't find the answer or don't understand the information I am looking at, even after I looked it up!

Knowledge is a sad thing to take to your grave with you. If I can impart one thing to another human being before my day comes then I have left a little piece of myself behind in the ole world, and I hope that makes for a better place!

Pay for section:thumbdn:
A beginners section that allows for the older more experienced the right to frequent only if they want to!:thumbup:

Anyway I have said my piece and that is how I feel on the subject!

 

[Patrice Lemée]

I am curious as to what level of paying membership we are talking about for access (for posting, viewing is free of course) to a theoretical experienced forum?

 

[Dave Behrens]

I am curious as to what level of paying membership we are talking about for access (for posting, viewing is free of course) to a theoretical experienced forum?

What makes any of you think that adding MORE forums to ST will "Keep the offending NEWBS out". All of the same crap that annoys you guys, will still be here and in the "Experienced Forum" as well, trust me the "NEWBS" will find their way there.

The only solution that will produce any possible good result is a two parter:
1. All of us need to develop some thicker skin when it comes to NEWBs
2. Give a new person 1 chance, if they display any negative attitude, then ignore them and their threads and their questions

 

[JParisi48]

What makes any of you think that adding MORE forums to ST will "Keep the offending NEWBS out". All of the same crap that annoys you guys, will still be here and in the "Experienced Forum" as well, trust me the "NEWBS" will find their way there.

The only solution that will produce any possible good result is a two parter:
1. All of us need to develop some thicker skin when it comes to NEWBs
2. Give a new person 1 chance, if they display any negative attitude, then ignore them and their threads and their questions

The more I think about it, the more I agree. Not every new member here is disrespectful or rude. I will admit, being new here, I have made some useless posts. Nothing that would come off rude or disrespectful in anyway. If someone offers advice I take it. I think the new members that don't change their attitude or don't take advice that is given should just be ingnored. It would be nice to have more experienced makers on this forum, but who knows, some of these "NEWBS" will probably be the experienced makers one day...:encouragement:

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Well I give up....
What I was looking for is simply an advanced Shoptalk and maybe bringing some of the experienced makers back. Not another newbie vs experienced, elitist curmudgeon thing.
I am out.

 

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

Well I give up....
What I was looking for is simply an advanced Shoptalk and maybe bringing some of the experienced makers back. Not another newbie vs experienced, elitist curmudgeon thing.
I am out.

Patrice...that's what a lot of us are looking for.

 

[GTH11]

Advanced shoptalk... I like it!
Dont get discouraged Patrice!

 

[NickWheeler]

Hey guys, I was pointed toward this and the initial thread in tech by a friend. Since it seems I'm partially at fault for some of this, I scribbled down some thoughts about this. This is partly a copy/paste from the other thread, but I added some other thoughts to this post----



Looking at some of the things that have transpired lately, I think instead of starting a thread about "1st knife WIPs" I should have started one that was more like, "It seems different here, anybody agree?" And gone from there.

I sort of pegged myself as this guy that's fed up with "new guys" that's sick of helping them. I love new guys... usually. I think what really prompted my post in the first place was some of the attitude that seems to have come along with SOME new guys.

A lot of this mess has been discussed as a new guys pissing off old guys issue.

That was NEVER my concern here.

MY CONCERN- is that Shop Talk has changed for whatever reasons, and many of the very highly skilled, experienced/accomplished makers have simply vanished.

I buy a maker membership here because every once in awhile I sell a knife in the exchange. But demanding guys like Kevin Cashen or Brian Fellhoelter to buy a membership, is IMHO, simply ridiculous. They never sell ANYTHING here. They came here to offer FREELY their thoughts and advice based on real world knowledge and skill.

Telling them they have to pay for a membership to share that, is like telling an author they have to pay people to read their book, or that singers should have to pay concert attendees to listen to their music. Not surprisingly, authors would say, "Ok, don't read my book," and singers would say, "Ok dillrod, don't listen to my music."

Nathan's idea in the other thread is very interesting, and I really appreciate his gesture. That's an amazing move in an effort to make something actually change for the better around here.


What I am struggling with in regard to the two level membership, is how it would work in application versus theory. In theory it sounds like a great solution/improvement. In application I can see where there would be a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings.

Like, "Okay, where do I stand here? Am I a new maker or an experienced one?"

For me personally, especially after (not intentionally!!!) making a lot of guys think I'm some kind of elitist... it would be awkward and uncomfortable to be a self proclaimed experienced maker. ESPECIALLY when in the grand scheme of things, I do not feel like one.

***warning brutal honesty here*** When I am a full time bladesmith and for whatever reasons have been fortunate to have a lot of forum friends, it would be easy to want to think of myself as a "big fish" here... but I keep my mindset about fish size to pond size relegated to when I'm standing behind my table at places like the BLADE show or the ABS EXPO in San Antonio... where I am just a tiny minnow trying to not be crushed by the true behemoths like Tim Hancock, Larry Fuegen, Russ Andrews, John White, Steve Johnson, Bertie Rietveld, I could keep going but it would take all day to finish the list.

So with that in mind, I think of myself as a newbie, an apprentice, an aspiring maker... but not an experienced, or Heaven forbid--- a professional. :foot:


The bottom line for me, is BF Shoptalk has been my favorite forum for YEARS, but lately it feels like something has changed and not in a good way. FWIW- I know I sound like a politician, pointing out a problem but not offering an honest to goodness solution. :foot:


Thanks again for the kind words, and even more for trying to improve the forum fellas. :thumbup:

 

[ron_m80]

I vote for less regulation. More friending, more subscribing, and more ignore listing.

Why cause the entirety of the forum to change when we are merely mirroring the world around us. Self dicipline is the remidy, not regulation.

 

[Brian Ayres]

I vote for an advanced area. But would I qualify?? Lol

If it's a restricted area like ARTG and only experienced makers can post. How that's delineated could be as easy say a paid membership. Most Newbies wouldn't pay for a membership until they have experience anyways.

Then, honestly, give some of the experienced makers like Kevin Cashen, Wick Ellerbe(LRB), the difficult but lovable Tai Goo and others free upgraded memberships.
For what it's worth, I have fat fingers n accidentally voted for a newbie forum. Please adjust the polls if possible.

 

[Sean Cochran]

What makes any of you think that adding MORE forums to ST will "Keep the offending NEWBS out". All of the same crap that annoys you guys, will still be here and in the "Experienced Forum" as well, trust me the "NEWBS" will find their way there.

The only solution that will produce any possible good result is a two parter:
1. All of us need to develop some thicker skin when it comes to NEWBs
2. Give a new person 1 chance, if they display any negative attitude, then ignore them and their threads and their questions

Seems pretty simple.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

I vote for less regulation. More friending, more subscribing, and more ignore listing.

Why cause the entirety of the forum to change when we are merely mirroring the world around us. Self dicipline is the remidy, not regulation.

This is a good direction to take, I think, as well.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Nevermind.