No alternative to parks 50?

[james terrio]

Parks #50 is way too fast for O-1. O-1 has a hardening time of 27 seconds. As i have found out, you can air harden O-1 to an extent9Hard enough to resist filing and cheaper drill bits). Parks AAA is perfect for O-1, but is too slow for shallow hardening steels.

Thanks, that's exactly what I was wondering. :thumbup:

 

[syvmn]

In conclusion, I'm confused... Screw it. I'll just save up for parks 50 so I don't have to think about it anymore

 

[Tai Goo]

Ok...Parks #50 is a QUENCH oil....Canola is a COOKING oil....Where really is the comparison?

It's true that more people use canola to cook with than to quench blades in, but keep in mind that knifemakers only represent a small segment of the community. However, canola is more widely used by knifemakers and bladesmiths as a quenching medium than Parks #50 or any of the others,… for all the reasons mentioned above.

I guess that would make canola the "standard" quenching medium in the custom knife industry today.

Before that, if you go back 30 years or so, it was automatic transmission fluid...

… 01 and 5160 were real popular back then, in the days of ATF and motor oil. The 10xx series type steels didn’t see any significant reemergence until the whole western pop culture “hamon/quench line” craze came in, around the 90s. Most of the edge quenching was on oil hardening steels back around the 70s-80s.

 

[Tai Goo]

"Real world" and "Real world metallurgical testing" (whatever that is) are two very different things. "Real world" is when you take a knife to the field, hold the knife in your hand and use it as a tool to make your life easier. To someone who actually uses tools, nothing else matters.

The point is: if the user can't distinguish between the two, does it really matter? It matters to a scientist in a lab. (period)

May be,... but this isn't the real world. It's cyber space.

 

[Tai Goo]

Good point.

+1 on that!

 

[Mike Davis]

I did not say that #50 was the best quench medium for every steel. For the 10xx series and the W series steels it is. For 52100, O-1, L6 and a host of other deep hardening steels, it is far from ideal. I would think canola might work for the deep hardening steels, but not for those that require a fast quench. I agree that there is no one perfect quench medium, just ideal ones for ideal situations. I for one, would rather treat a steel to it's maximum hardness, and temper the steel to the hardness i want rather than leave it to chance.

*As a side note, i do agree, to each their own, but i just don not agree that canola is as good as Parks #50 for shallow hardening steels. I am sure some makers use it to quench in...Hell it is cheap and to an extent it works, Just works differently than a oil designed for quenching steel...

 

[Tai Goo]

Canola is too fast for steels like 01 or L6, especially if your philosophy is, "the less stress and shock required to get the job done, the better". Stress kills!… and shortens life. "Hyper-quenching" stresses the piss out of the steel!

Today, the popularity of simple steels like 1095, W2 etc., is mainly due to the popularity of visible quench lines. However, along the way a lot of folks started to appreciate them for other reasons. How they cut not being the least of them. They also carry a bit of old fashioned nostalgia and romance, back to the days when a plain ol’ knife was your best friend.

The question should be, is it really worth it to acquire a bucket of Parks #50, just for a few 1095 blades, rather than just getting a piece of 01 or other more modern type steel,… if pure performance is your only concern?

... or just keep it thin and quench it in canola?

 

[Tai Goo]

(Comic relief)

… Just turn your quench speeds, soak times, temperatures and microstructures down a notch... O.K. Scotty?

Dang Nabit!

 

[Kentucky]

Well rain water is still free...Just expect some occasional heartbreak, and thats after a few years of practice

 

[Tai Goo]

Some folks swear by rainwater...

 

[Seals]

I use heated canola.0-1 ,1095 ,and damascus with good results.A local friend swears by peanut oil.I figure its about the same as canola.

 

[Tai Goo]

I have noticed that the trees and vegetables in my yard do better with just a light sprinkling of rain, than they do with a heavy quenching in "hose water"…

 

[NickWheeler]

You know, I think there are times when guys try so hard to "simplify" things that they end up over complicating them in the process. I would imagine a serviceable blade can be made from 1095 and canola.

My path is not always just going by engineered numbers, but trying to integrate them with art and free flowing things.... er.... uh... hamon. I was NEVER able to get this sort of stuff with anything but Park50 or water.... and I much prefer the Park50. These are pretty tame compared to some of the more recent ones I've done. These pics are pretty good examples of my desired end result... and it really was pretty straight-forward after several years of learning.

I suppose what's ironic about some of this, is that I do totally get a lot of what Tai is trying to say. Park50 has become a bandwagon that lots of folks have jumped on because they heard it as the "buzz word" of oil. There are probably a lot of guys spouting off about it, that cannot make a blade anywhere near the quality that Tai could achieve with a chunk of 1095 and some old oil.... because at the end of the day it comes down to the guy standing at the fire- his pertinacity, his desire, his stubborness, and a little bit of natural talent.... more so than simply relying on numbers. Guys like Tai have loads of all of that stuff--- and it shows in their work.

Somehow there seems to be this delineation though.... this fault line separating the "technical nerd guys" and the "howl at the moon, numbers are a conspiracy" guys.... which is pretty crazy because in the grand scheme of things, we're all out to make the best knife that EACH ONE OF US can.

So do I think Park50 is a GREAT quenchant for shallow hardening steels? You bet your butt I do. Do I think simply having a 5 gallon bucket of it will make you a great knifemaker? Not even close.

 

[BMK]

Does anyone know who generates the "data" and numbers on these ideal quenchants?

 

[Tai Goo]

Nice quench Nick! #50 does seem to excel on that type of hamon.

 

[Kentucky]

When I use water I prefer rain water...I learned a lot about water quenching from reading Howard Clarks thoughts and practices...When it comes to water quenching(or anything blade related for that matter) Howard Clark is a good smith to listen too..

Some folks swear by rainwater...

 

[Mike Davis]

The numbers i have seen were generated by countless tests performed by MS Kevin Cashen. I have chatted in length about quench oils with Kevin. His tests show results from #50 that NO other can do. Again i agree that some people get good results from canola oil. If the quench is controlled, and every quench is repeated in the same manner, good results should come of it. I am not in any way saying that using parks oils makes someone a superior knife maker...Not at all. I would just rather use the best product for the job.

Edit: I have crap luck with water...tried it a few times and sacrificed several pieces to the water gods...

 

[NickWheeler]

Just for clarity Mike, I think you and I are very much on the same page.

 

[Drew Riley]

Quench an oil hardened steel blade in the finest quenchant made and quench a blade in canola oil. Forget which balde was quenched in which oil. Use both blades. Bet you can't distinguish which blade was quenched in which oil based solely on real world blade performance.

Moral of the story (according to "Tony" below): Beyond an academic discussion, does it really matter?

Does anyone know who generates the "data" and numbers on these ideal quenchants?

Do you know where you're generating YOUR data on "indistinguishable blades"? Because I have an idea....

And I for one "bet" I could tell the difference.

 

[javand]

Another side of it worth mentioning is that Don Fogg himself, turned a number of makers onto using Canola, yet also seemed to love using water to quench. I remember recently reading something where he talked about about being able to get great results with water quenching with just about any steel by turning down the temp and increasing the soak time before quench. Although may be misquoting, or taking it out of context.


If you can get the same or similar results with triple quenching in canola, then why not use it. If you're shooting for a crazy active hamon, then parks 50 is almost a given, but a hamon doesn't make a great performing knife. Also, I don't think too many people are arguing against the advantages of Parks 50, since it's really a totally different application than Canola. The more apt comparison would probably be Canola vs Parks AAA.

Hell, the Nepalese Khukri makers still quench 5160 with water out of a tea kettle, and are able to achieve some pretty great results also (and sometimes mediocre ones), which anybody that's own and abused an HI khukri can attest to.



I too am concerned with the Parks 50 bandwagon. I'm wondering how many knives out there have been quenched in P50 that are from steels that aren't suited to it, because some makers think it's the "ultimate quench".


Either way, it's good that we air this stuff out occasionally. A lot of advice gets thrown around with a cut and dry response, when there are infinite variables involved in this craft.