No alternative to parks 50?

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Can't remember where I read it but A guy was talking about using water and mixing different salt levels and adjusting temp to adjust the speed of the quench. Adding salt speeds up the quench but makes it more even and raises the boiling point and heating water slows the quench so a heated brine quench may not be as aggressive as one might think. I have been playing with this idea and getting some interesting results with 1095.

I am actually starting to wonder if brine at the correct salinity and temp might be ideal for such steel. I have been making miniature katanas and wanted a natural sori so water (brine) was the way. But I was getting some cracks. I adjusted the salt and temp and quench time and have been having good results so far. Just playing around at this point and these minis will not be used for anything serious.

I have been told that parks50 will not do a natural sori? Is that the case?
 
Water will force a clay coated blade's tip to rise. A differential hardening quench (whether with clay or just time/temps) in oil will force it to drop. Especially if multiple quenches are done.

That is not theory, that has been the case time and time again in my shop. :)

edited to say it's almost not noticeable with the first oil quench--- but if you do about 4 clay coated oil quenches on a blade that's in the 10" range, the tip will drop at least 1/4"
 
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Is there any "Studies Show" data on the latest and greatest quenchants that come from places other than quenchant producers? I would expect that the adamant support of some quenchants is based on studies that show them to be objectively superior.
 
Good point, plus does anyone have any quench data on canola? Has it been evaluated in a lab for it's quenching properties? If no than who is to say that it is not ideal for certain metals? Maybe it happens to be a good cooking oil AND a good quench oil.
 
NickWheeler said:
Speaking of crazy microstructures.... this is a blade I just polished out. W2 quenched point down into Park 50... no clay, just time and temperatures at work. ;) :)

[video=youtube;v9EpItK01hQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v9EpItK01hQ[/video]
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Hamons/quench lines are like split second snap shots in steel! There‘s something “magical“ about that. They say as much about the smith as they do about the steel.

They are visual apparitions, but keep in mind that they require all the same skills and knowledge as standard quenching,… and then some! So, regardless of all the varied opinions about how they perform, pros/cons etc., and all the “metallurgical drama” surrounding them,… they do show that the smith has reached a certain level of proficiency in the art of heat treating,… manipulating the properties as well as the appearance of steel.

I think that's pretty cool! :)
 
ShadowsHamon said:
Good point, plus does anyone have any quench data on canola? Has it been evaluated in a lab for it's quenching properties? If no than who is to say that it is not ideal for certain metals? Maybe it happens to be a good cooking oil AND a good quench oil.
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There was a thread that had some on vegetable oils in general, compared to commercial fluids. It's probably still here somewhere. They were faster than most of the commercial quenching fluids as I recall, at least at the get go of the quench cycle. They are a recognized and studied alternative.

The general grape vine consensus is that canola seems the best, although there may be some expensive exotic ones that are faster or better in some way,... Just from my own experience, canola starts real fast and finishes real slow,... just like some of the commercial oils... I think it's the easiest, so far, to do an interrupted quench with, partly because of the smoke point indicator, and partly because it finishes so slow.

It will fatigue from use over time and slow down. I think the best way to tell is by the color and consistency of it. When it's fresh, it's clear with a slight greenish/yellow tint, (plenty fast for 1095). When it starts looking a little brown like weak tea, it's slowing down, (Good for a rainbow quench). When it gets to the color and consistency of thick maple syrup, it's shot,... except for maybe some oil hardening steels. It's best to keep it corked up when not in use because it will dry out. I think there is also some variance to consider from batch to batch as with any natural type product. I’ve had good luck with Kroger brand.

There is the possibility to add some sort of stabilizer to the veggies. The stability and shelf life seems to be the biggest issue, not the speed.
 
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There seems to be a lot of consensus that P50 is good for fast hardening steels. How would you say type K oil compares to P50 ? I think my first batch of 1095 will be canola though. I'm more concerned with monitoring and controlling the temps in my forge and soak times etc than the quench medium, for now.
 
Mike Davis said:
I for one, would rather treat a steel to it's maximum hardness, and temper the steel to the hardness i want rather than leave it to chance.
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That's my approach also. I invest bucket-loads of time, money, blood, sweat and tears into every knife. I'm not interested in the easiest/cheapest/traditional/popular way to HT, I'm trying to learn the best way for each alloy/application.

In no small measure, that's why Brad at Peters' has HT'ed all the knives I've offered for sale to date... he knows what he's doing and I don't :D
 
5 pages, 87 replies, 1882 views later and no definitive "Studies Show" data. "Data" is a four letter word indeed.
 
In order to achieve maximum hardness, you must stress the holy crap out of the steel!,… Very risky with all the possible variables. Unless you really need max hardness to get the job done, then lowering the quench speed and sacrificing a point or two of hardness makes a lot of sense.

That's just really basic stuff guys... Come on?
 
Even I can understand this type of reasoning - BRAVO! What you wrote makes absolute sense...thank you.

"Max hardness" that is stepped down during temper. Is "basic" the same as "simple"?

Tai Goo said:
In order to achieve maximum hardness, you must stress the holy crap out of the steel!,… Very risky with all the possible variables. Unless you really need max hardness to get the job done, then lowering the quench speed and sacrificing a point or two of hardness makes a lot of sense.

That's just really basic stuff guys... Come on?
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BMK said:
5 pages, 87 replies, 1882 views later and no definitive "Studies Show" data. "Data" is a four letter word indeed.
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I can't tell if this is genuine, or just stirring the pot.

Read this
http://www.quenchtek.com/pdf_files/...e Analysis to Temperature Gradient Method.pdf

The quench speed in seconds and classification of an oil as fast, medium, slow...relates to performance in this test.

The manufacturers data sheets usually report their results in this test.
http://www.qtstools.com/TechInfo/K.pdf





scan0001.jpg



If you want data, you could search for it.
 
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BMK said:
5 pages, 87 replies, 1882 views later and no definitive "Studies Show" data. "Data" is a four letter word indeed.
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Just ask your test-monkey if you're determined not to do your own googling. Who cares anyway, if clients "can't tell the difference", why not just use old leaf springs, quench in whatever the local fry-cook tossed out and call it good? BTW, stop yelling, it's freakin' rude.
Tai Goo said:
Unless you really need max hardness to get the job done, then lowering the quench speed and sacrificing a point or two of hardness makes a lot of sense.
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Point taken. Perhaps "maximum" is too strong a word...
 
Only shoot for “maximum hardness” when it's absolutely necessary. If you have some wiggle room,... take advantage of it.
 
Thank you for being an active participant in this well past the point of diminishing return comedy.

james terrio said:
Just ask your test-monkey if you're determined not to do your own googling. Who cares anyway, if clients "can't tell the difference", why not just use old leaf springs, quench in whatever the local fry-cook tossed out and call it good? BTW, stop yelling, it's freakin' rude.


Point taken. Perhaps "maximum" is too strong a word...
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I'm looking for it... there was a great article here about this very subject with lots of great information.

One thing that may not have been brought up is the thickness of the object being quenched.

I have 11 second oil for the steels that need it, 28 second oil for those steels and Aluminum plates for air quenching steels. I think something like Canola oil could be ideal for some steels though, it all depends on the desired outcome and steel used. I don't think you get a full conversion on some steels if the proper oil isn't used.

There is no be all, end all solution for this, it is an art based on science in my opinion.

And because it is so much fun I want to quench some clay coated 1050 in water, there is something cool to me about that sort of thing. :D
 
12345678910 said:
I can't tell if this is genuine, or just stirring the pot...
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I'm gonna say stirring the pot. He's already made it clear that any data provided will be disregarded because there's a difference in "labratory tests" and the "real world".
 
Forthright dissent is not "stirring the pot". Is there any data that comes from places other than producers of quenchants?

12345678910 said:
I can't tell if this is genuine, or just stirring the pot.

Read this
http://www.quenchtek.com/pdf_files/...e Analysis to Temperature Gradient Method.pdf

The quench speed in seconds and classification of an oil as fast, medium, slow...relates to performance in this test.

The manufacturers data sheets usually report their results in this test.
http://www.qtstools.com/TechInfo/K.pdf





scan0001.jpg



If you want data, you could search for it.
Click to expand...
 
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