No alternative to parks 50?

[james terrio]

Now it's a philosophical debate... There sure seems to be a lot of philosophers posing as scientists.

You guys are CRAZY. "Can't we just all get along?"......Rodney King

Being neither a philosopher nor a scientist, nor (depending of course on whom you ask) crazy, I cannot decide if I should be offended or just feel left-out

EDIT: btw Robert, you forgot the voodoo chicken feathers, I'm pretty sure that's the problem

 

[Tai Goo]

Only if you promise to float a rubber ducky in it.

O.K. Karl, I promise, if you send me yours to go with it. They should stay together.

 

[Tai Goo]

These metallurgical dramas have a way of working themselves out...

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I agree totally with Ed and Tai.....facts are like bricks. A pile of bricks isn't a house and a pile of facts isn't science.

BUT A good bricklayer will know how to use the bricks to make anything he wants...including a house.
And a good scientist or technologically trained person will know how to use the pile of facts to do whatever he wants to.....including making a knife.

It is ignorance of the facts that creates myth and mystique.....not the absence of them.....the facts usually are readily available to anyone looking for them.


Just for fun - This has been used many time under different circumstances:
At a trial, during closing arguments, the prosecution admonished the defense for summing up the "hard cold facts" of the case. He looked at the jury and said, " The defense is entitled to their own opinion of the facts....but what they are not entitled to is their own set of facts!" The jury found the man guilty.

 

[Robert Dark]

btw Robert, you forgot the voodoo chicken feathers, I'm pretty sure that's the problem

Dag-nabbit, I knew I was forgetting something. Nothing like a few "voodoo-whodoo-youdoo yard bird feathers"

Robert (who needs to go back to the drawing board)

 

[NickWheeler]

To be serious for a moment... I am in the same camp that while I use and believe in, commercial grade quench oils... I believe an accurate heat-source is of the utmost importance if you are after this with any sort of scientific approach/reasoning.

Most of the stories I've heard about people breaking blades in Park 50, can be sorted back to the fact that they heated the blade up in a wide open forge, in bright daylight, which was also how they "thermo-cycled" their blade as well.

Step 1- Get a good grip on heat control first... Step 2- then get a quality quench medium.

Preferably with about 5 minutes in between step 1 and step 2.

 

[sunshadow]

To be serious for a moment... I am in the same camp that while I use and believe in, commercial grade quench oils... I believe an accurate heat-source is of the utmost importance if you are after this with any sort of scientific approach/reasoning.

Most of the stories I've heard about people breaking blades in Park 50, can be sorted back to the fact that they heated the blade up in a wide open forge, in bright daylight, which was also how they "thermo-cycled" their blade as well.

Step 1- Get a good grip on heat control first... Step 2- then get a quality quench medium.

Preferably with about 5 minutes in between step 1 and step 2.

Well put.

-Page

 

[crex]

Have to disagree SShepard. Only takes a little reading on this other forums and attending a few shows to find "Knifemakers" (self-professed, of course) who have bought top of the line grinders, salt tanks, ovens, forges, hammers, quenchants, etc. taken numerous classes and still cannot and probably will never make a respectable blade. They bought the racecar but can't hang a left. However, they sell them here, at shows and even in stores with the claim that they use only the best tools, equipment, and supplies (which is true). Their shiney knives.......still sub standard crap!
It is not the tools. It is the individual's desire, determination and effort to do one's best.
I do agree that serious makers will normally use the best they can afford, but as Tai stated there are definitely more than one way to skin the neighbor's cat without being caught.

 

[BMK]

Well Done!

Have to disagree SShepard. Only takes a little reading on this other forums and attending a few shows to find "Knifemakers" (self-professed, of course) who have bought top of the line grinders, salt tanks, ovens, forges, hammers, quenchants, etc. taken numerous classes and still cannot and probably will never make a respectable blade. They bought the racecar but can't hang a left. However, they sell them here, at shows and even in stores with the claim that they use only the best tools, equipment, and supplies (which is true). Their shiney knives.......still sub standard crap!
It is not the tools. It is the individual's desire, determination and effort to do one's best.
I do agree that serious makers will normally use the best they can afford, but as Tai stated there are definitely more than one way to skin the neighbor's cat without being caught.

 

[SteelSlaver]

How many knives are going to be but to through the stress cycles of a 4x4 pickup spring, which was fully hardened and then drawn back? That said there is nothing wrong with a properly edge hardened blade or a clay coated blade with good geometry and both will do well for most cutting. Just like steel selection, the use of these methods is once again it is about what is it for. It is also partly about aesthetics, just like fancy polished slick hardwood burl scales, file worked guards and etc. Does anyone think that that wonderful knife Tai made with the rainbow harmon and beaded guardd is going to be used as a "survival knife"?

If I was going to make a knife that was the only knife I could take into the sticks and depend on for a year, it would be a medium large 5160 blade, fully hardened with a drawn spine, colby bolted and glued G10 scales with a matted finish on a full tang. Thing is if a survival situation comes upon you it won't be planned or you wouldn't get in the situation. I am not going to go through life packing some honking knife around, just in case. If I ever end up in a real jackpot, I will depend on my brain and knowledge and if I meet my demise I doubt it will be because I didn't have the worlds greatest survival knife.

 

[SShepherd]

Have to disagree SShepard. Only takes a little reading on this other forums and attending a few shows to find "Knifemakers" (self-professed, of course) who have bought top of the line grinders, salt tanks, ovens, forges, hammers, quenchants, etc. taken numerous classes and still cannot and probably will never make a respectable blade. They bought the racecar but can't hang a left. However, they sell them here, at shows and even in stores with the claim that they use only the best tools, equipment, and supplies (which is true). Their shiney knives.......still sub standard crap!
It is not the tools. It is the individual's desire, determination and effort to do one's best.
I do agree that serious makers will normally use the best they can afford, but as Tai stated there are definitely more than one way to skin the neighbor's cat without being caught.

in 15 years I'd say I've only seen 1 or 2 examples of what you're talking about, and they don't last long. Other than an ABS stamp, aren't all knifemakers "self-professed" at one time ?
It is the individual's desire, determination and effort to do one's best
I agree 100%
to some here, doing ones best also relates to seeking out better menthods of heat treating- other's, not so much. Honestly, whatever floats your boat.
Everytime some seems to ask about a commercial quenchant on this forum there's a contingant that likes to say "it's not necessary" or "it's just academic" or "it's a waste of money" . Well, to the person who's looking to continually improve it's not academic or a waste.
the comment was made here;
I actually feel kind of sorry for the “idealistic absolutists“, because their goals are unattainable and they will never be happy. The only place their goals and ideals will ever exist is in their minds. It’s a self defeating philosophy
Guess what, noone asked or needs anyones pity here.While that opinion is fine if the person is speaking of themself, it's no ones place to say that about anyone else. People looking for improvement don't look at it as "self defeating" but an adventure.

 

[Mike Davis]

in 15 years I'd say I've only seen 1 or 2 examples of what you're talking about, and they don't last long. Other than an ABS stamp, aren't all knifemakers "self-professed" at one time ?
It is the individual's desire, determination and effort to do one's best
I agree 100%
to some here, doing ones best also relates to seeking out better menthods of heat treating- other's, not so much. Honestly, whatever floats your boat.
Everytime some seems to ask about a commercial quenchant on this forum there's a contingant that likes to say "it's not necessary" or "it's just academic" or "it's a waste of money" . Well, to the person who's looking to continually improve it's not academic or a waste.
the comment was made here;
I actually feel kind of sorry for the “idealistic absolutists“, because their goals are unattainable and they will never be happy. The only place their goals and ideals will ever exist is in their minds. It’s a self defeating philosophy
Guess what, noone asked or needs anyones pity here.While that opinion is fine if the person is speaking of themself, it's no ones place to say that about anyone else. People looking for improvement don't look at it as "self defeating" but an adventure.

Very well put.

 

[Tai Goo]

Someone send Shepherd a rubber ducky....

 

[Drew Riley]

Have to disagree SShepard. Only takes a little reading on this other forums and attending a few shows to find "Knifemakers" (self-professed, of course) who have bought top of the line grinders, salt tanks, ovens, forges, hammers, quenchants, etc. taken numerous classes and still cannot and probably will never make a respectable blade. They bought the racecar but can't hang a left. However, they sell them here, at shows and even in stores with the claim that they use only the best tools, equipment, and supplies (which is true). Their shiney knives.......still sub standard crap!
It is not the tools. It is the individual's desire, determination and effort to do one's best.
I do agree that serious makers will normally use the best they can afford, but as Tai stated there are definitely more than one way to skin the neighbor's cat without being caught.

The closest thing I've seen to this are makers who think that the only thing involved in heat treating any carbon steel is heating to non-magnetic or some shade of reddish orange (which could be anywhere from 1200F to 2500F since they're using their home built forge or a bonfire in their back yard), and dunking it into something like used motor oil, cooking oil, water, etc....

If the blade "survives" this process, they then "temper" it in some $5 toaster oven that might say it's set to 400F but in reality is only 325F, or maybe they're heating it with a propane torch for 1 or 2 minutes until the outside edges turn some shade of "straw color" or what have you.

Sure, the blade will take an edge, seem hard, and even shave some hair, cut some rope, or slice some paper... but odds are, it's still a very poor heat treat and is going to cause nothing but problems during real use.

The problem is, they'll never really "test" the knife because they don't want to risk damaging or scratching it before they sell it.

But why are makers under the impressions that heat treating is such a simple process that can be done with little more than a bic lighter and some old bacon grease? After reading this thread, I'm beginning to see.....

 

[Tai Goo]

The other side of the coin is, why do so many people waist so much time, energy, space and money on stuff they don't really need,... especially when they only make one knife a year,… if that?

 

[Drew Riley]

The other side of the coin is, why do so many people waist so much time, energy, space and money on stuff they don't really need,... especially when they only make one knife a year,… if that?

Because he who dies with the most tools is the winner?

That, or (and how I wish I had this problem) some people just have way more money than sense.

 

[Danbo]

The other side of the coin is, why do so many people waist so much time, energy, space and money on stuff they don't really need,... especially when they only make one knife a year,… if that?

Perhaps they're interested in making the best knife they can?

 

[Tai Goo]

Perhaps they're interested in making the best knife they can?

Maybe, or perhaps they are trying to make up for the fact that they don't have the skill, knowledge, intelligence, experience and intestinal fortitude etc., to get along without it.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

I find this whole debate pretty funny when there is really no debate to it, if you don't quench the steel in the correct time frame the correct way things are compromised.

Soak times and temperature are so important to me with the steels I use I wouldn't even consider guessing.

 

[Tai Goo]

I find this whole debate pretty funny when there is really no debate to it, if you don't quench the steel in the correct time frame the correct way things are compromised.

Exactly!

I've said this before in so many ways, but I'll say it again,... In order to achieve the desired results, certain conditions must be met. The flip side of this is that,... if the desired results were achieved, then the conditions must have been met.

It's really just that simple.