No alternative to parks 50?

[12345678910]

Forthright dissent is not "stirring the pot". Is there any data that comes from places other than producers of quenchants?

Of course, but don't discount the data they provide.
Many companies I know partner with universities and such to provide good engineering info to their customers.

Search the metallurgy academic papers
(usually need an ASTM or university library access subscription)

The internet has so much more than porn.

 

[Mike Davis]

Forthright dissent is not "stirring the pot". Is there any data that comes from places other than producers of quenchants?

Google Kevin Cashen. He has done more "metallurgical" AND "real world" testing than probably the next 50 people behind him combined.Are you just here to start arguments? So far you have added zero to this thread, and i suspect that to be a ongoing issue...

 

[BMK]

Thank you. I am fascinated that so many have such adamant opinions without being able to directly explain how the opinion was formed. There is a great deal of science by consensus here.

Of course, but don't discount the data they provide.
Many companies I know partner with universities and such to provide good engineering info to their customers.

Search the metallurgy academic papers
(usually need an ASTM or university library access subscription)

The internet has so much more than porn.

 

[sunshadow]

There seems to be a lot of consensus that P50 is good for fast hardening steels. How would you say type K oil compares to P50 ? I think my first batch of 1095 will be canola though. I'm more concerned with monitoring and controlling the temps in my forge and soak times etc than the quench medium, for now.

Regardless of what our "fine art" friend says (and aesthetically some of his knives are beautiful!) what you are looking to do with 1095 is to transform ALL of the austentite to martensite upon quenching, canola will give you partial transformation with some pearlite. 1095 is touchy stuff being a hypereutechtoid steel, it really wants to precipitate pearlite out of solution, and you do not want pearlite anywhere near your edge. If you are going to play with canola oil get some 1084 from Aldo, it is much more forgiving of slow oils like canola (although I switched to Parks 50 for my 1084 and got noticeable improvements)

-Page

 

[james terrio]

Is there any data that comes from places other than producers of quenchants?

Yes.

Thank you for being an active participant in this well past the point of diminishing return comedy.

Ummm... OK. You're welcome.

The real question is, what air is best for air hardening?

I do not know if extremely humid air would have a measurably different effect than very dry air. I think more humidity would increase heat-transfer? There is interesting information out there, regarding faster/more complete hardening with forced air vs. still air, whether to force air across or down the length of the blade, and even anecdotal evidence that an oscillating fan may cause more warpage than air blown straight along the blades.

I say that with tongue firmly in cheek, as I suspect you understand, but it could indeed make a difference (however slight). Perhaps I'm a geek, but I really do find it fascinating and worthy of serious thought.

Regarding steel manu's and HT oil manu's specs, one notable point that has been brought up is, the overall mass of the item being quenched. A D2 knife blade is a mere sliver compared to a 200# rotary die made of the same alloy, for instance.

 

[12345678910]

Thank you. I am fascinated that so many have such adamant opinions without being able to directly explain how the opinion was formed. There is a great deal of science by consensus here.

I have found that this list of texts to be a great starting point to understanding HT and steel.
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/bib.html
&
Kevin Cashens posts to be quite informative - I walk away with understanding rather than full of mystical marketing.

 

[Drew Riley]

Thank you. I am fascinated that so many have such adamant opinions without being able to directly explain how the opinion was formed. There is a great deal of science by consensus here.

I can only speak for myself, but personally I don't have the time nor the patience to give you a play by play list of every webpage, article, forum post, MSDS, conversation/email with other makers etc... that I've spent countless hours reading and digesting in order to form my opinions on why I believe Parks 50 to be more consistent and give better results than vegetable oil.

Not to mention my own personal experiences and testing using both.

Now, to be fair, I've not yet tried Canola...

The information is readily available and fairly easy to find if you actually care to look for it and consider it. Also, I'm also not sure why you seem to ready to discount/disregard studies and data from the manufacturer?

This isn't some late night infomercial on the slicing and dicing power of the Wonder Chopper (a steal at only 3 payments of $29.95! if you act NOW!)

These are professionally made quenchants that have been carefully fabricated and time tested for reliability.
Parks distributes millions of gallons of oil and quenchants all over the world. If they fudge the data, it's gonna come out.

 

[Mike Davis]

I can only speak for myself, but personally I don't have the time nor the patience to give you a play by play list of every webpage, article, forum post, MSDS, conversation/email with other makers etc... that I've spent countless hours reading and digesting in order to form my opinions on why I believe Parks 50 to be more consistent and give better results than vegetable oil.

Not to mention my own personal experiences and testing using both.

Now, to be fair, I've not yet tried Canola...

The information is readily available and fairly easy to find if you actually care to look for it and consider it. Also, I'm also not sure why you seem to ready to discount/disregard studies and data from the manufacturer?

This isn't some late night infomercial on the slicing and dicing power of the Wonder Chopper (a steal at only 3 payments of $29.95! if you act NOW!)

These are professionally made quenchants that have been carefully fabricated and time tested for reliability.
Parks distributes millions of gallons of oil and questions all over the world. If they fudge the data, it's gonna come out.

+1000000!!!
Apparently our testing just doesn't cut it....If you really are that concerned with facts...Use your google fu young grasshopper. That should be "simple" enough. If it isn't...pack your toys up and go play in another sandbox.....

 

[james terrio]

This isn't some late night infomercial on the slicing and dicing power of the Wonder Chopper (a steal at only 3 payments of $29.95! if you act NOW!)

These are professionally made quenchants that have been carefully fabricated and time tested for reliability.
Parks distributes millions of gallons of oil and questions all over the world. If they fudge the data, it's gonna come out.

At the risk of sounding like I'm "piling on"... excellent post. The folks who make high-grade quenchants, and high-grade steel, are not mucking about. Those of us who endeavor to make high-grade knives are extremely lucky to have their R&D at our fingertips.

 

[RyanW]

Another great thread headed down the crapper! BMK why don't you do your own testing and let us know the DATA instead of talking down to peoples real life experience with quenchants! There is an art to making knives that you have yet to grasp.

 

[javand]

Regardless of what our "fine art" friend says (and aesthetically some of his knives are beautiful!) what you are looking to do with 1095 is to transform ALL of the austentite to martensite upon quenching, canola will give you partial transformation with some pearlite.

Isn't that true of any blade that's clay coated to produce hamon also, regardless of quench medium? Are you arguing then, that anybody who makes a piece with hamon is intentionally creating an inferior product in pursuit of the aesthetic? Since honestly, that could be a semi-valuable argument, yet nobody seems to be making it. Most seem to have accepted hamon as a totally valid pursuit, yet it's pretty hard to argue that it makes a superior performing knife. Might as well say that 1095 quenched in canola is about as good as a clay coated blade quenched in parks?

I'm being facetious of course, but still.

As I said, this topic has gotten down right religious, and sometimes the "science" becomes your religion, especially if you worship it blindly. I prefer the total skeptical approach, I'm just going to assume we're all wrong until proven otherwise. ;D

 

[james terrio]

Are you arguing then, that anybody who makes a piece with hamon is intentionally creating an inferior product in pursuit of the aesthetic?

Yes.

The difference may be negligible, but I'm pretty sure that given modern alloys and HT techniques, a hamon does doodly-squat to improve a blade's performance. They sure are pretty, though.

P.S. pshaw on this talk of "science becoming religion". If it can be proved, then uhhh... end of argument. It doesn't mean anyone is "worshipping" anything.

 

[Brian Ayres]

There is no be all, end all solution for this, it is an art based on science in my opinion.

The best answer yet!:thumbup: Bravo Daniel! Must be the clear mountain air? Does above 5,000 feet speed up the quench on airquenched steels? HAFQ High Altitude Fast Quench....

Seriously. The thing I personally love about doing the heat treat in house is being able to combine the art and science to create something unique. I have 5 gallons of Parks 50, but might have to try some canola oil too...

 

[javand]

Right James! I totally agree. I'm just trying to point out that we seem to have pretty much accepted that compromise, so much so that a very large number of the most renown makers actively pursue and incorporate said "compromise". If it's all about making the best performing knife possible, how can we justify this?

To that, I just want us to all acknowledge, that the whole craft is rife with compromise, and sometimes it's a balancing act, so lets get off our high horse and stop pretending that all we care about is performance, because for every ounce of energy that goes into performance, at least as much is put into aesthetics.

Obviously, that's just my worthless opinion. So take it for just that.

Cheers!

 

[james terrio]

...the whole craft is rife with compromise, and sometimes it's a balancing act...

That seems fair. :thumbup:

I got knee-deep in a discussion about mid-grade stainless steels not long ago, and a wise man reminded me, "they're all a dang site better than a chipped rock."

 

[BMK]

Bravo!

Right James! I totally agree. I'm just trying to point out that we seem to have pretty much accepted that compromise, so much so that a very large number of the most renown makers actively pursue and incorporate said "compromise". If it's all about making the best performing knife possible, how can we justify this?

To that, I just want us to all acknowledge, that the whole craft is rife with compromise, and sometimes it's a balancing act, so lets get off our high horse and stop pretending that all we care about is performance, because for every ounce of energy that goes into performance, at least as much is put into aesthetics.

Obviously, that's just my worthless opinion. So take it for just that.

Cheers!

 

[syvmn]

Alright... So I've been thinking.... I stared this cluster f@$& of a thread so I feel obliged to contribute. Since I started making knives i've used canola. Moving on to more complicated steels I will get some parks #50 in. I'm going to heat treat in BOTH oils and send them out to be (blindly) tested for hardness. This might take a month or two since I'm still working on building my shop, but if no one comes up with any hard facts I WILL.

By all means keep arguing. I've learned a lot from this. ; o )

 

[Tai Goo]

I think it's just turned into, "idealism vs. pragmatism" and "absolutism vs. relativism".

Now it's a philosophical debate... There sure seems to be a lot of philosophers posing as scientists.

...I’m siding up with the pragmatic relativists.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Knife makers sure do like to talk about quench oils.

 

[Tai Goo]

I actually feel kind of sorry for the “idealistic absolutists“, because their goals are unattainable and they will never be happy. The only place their goals and ideals will ever exist is in their minds. It’s a self defeating philosophy,... but if that’s what they want, they can have it.

The really sad part is that, this type of misery,… loves company.