Norfleet Restitution ?

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VCM3

VCM3

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OK,You guys might pile on me for this,but here goes..

Everyone agree's,his knives are pretty good,he has talent,but not a good businessman,with obvious prob's.

The US Gov.,can bail out the banks,why can'twe,or why don't we bail out Gilbert

Appoint someone to take charge
Find out who is out $$
Everyone chip in a few bucks
Shut down Gilbert for sales here,until he gets it together,if ever

If for some reason,the knives from the guys out of a knife show,they will put them up for sale,with proceeds going back to the BF's site

I know this is much,but there are A LOT of members here,if everyone chipped in a buck,there would be plenty to go around

Just an idea & if its crazy,delete the whole darn thread,Thanks,
-Vince
 
I have no gripe here,out nothing,but all the threads sadden me,I feel bad for all involved
This could be an idea for the future of the makers here
It could become a restitution fund (for all in the future),funded by the makers paid subscriptions,like an ins policy
Just an idea
-Vince
 
It could also be funded through the members paid subscriptions,with over 120 thousand strong
-Vince
 
It could also make some guys feel they could "declare bankruptcy" and let the rest of us buy them back. I think setting up a fund can set that bad precedent, and setting it up out of money paid for a different purpose is even worse, like forcing people who don't feel they want to back this, pay anyway, like taxes.

On the other hand, on a one-time basis, for an individual whom people might feel isn't trying to scam them, just can't get organized, ... maybe. He could get back on BF after he pays back his voluntary backers.

Overall, though, I don't know if BF should be mediating this.
 
I just think,that with all the good members here,there are guys who have the smarts to orchestrate this

To all members,would you rather read about your fellow members misfortunes?
It would not cost all involved much.You want to be able to log onto BF's,and buy great knives,newly made or pre owned for that matter ?
Well,here we go,step up..

Also,it could be combined for when the server blows,or tech prob's...

I dunno,but this is a BIG community...
-Vince
 
In my opinion, you want to reward bad behavior here. The timing and use of Mr Norfleet's medical problems as an excuse for nondelivery is highly suspect to many. Nothing takes the place of accepting responsibility for your own bad choices and bad practices and making it right to those who have been wronged. When someone else bails you out, it tends to somehow justify the bad behavior and implies "It's not your fault" and most people will never truely learn to accept responsibility and regain true honor like that.
 
Vince, I had a horse in this race and waited for delivery of a finished product, but I believe that this is a good idea. We all come upon hard times and could use a little help from our friends. Gilbert makes a good knife and it is his means of supporting himself, I would like to help. Count me in for this idea. I would really like all those who have outstanding orders, get what they purchased. Then, if able, Gilbert can go on as his health issues are resolved rather then giving up what he enjoys. Thanks Vince for seeing this issue in a different light. Martin
 
There will be many valid points to come,here,I'm sure...

But rules could be made,like say :

A maker:
2 0r 3 deals reported/looked into,confirmed bad....banned maker..
Same for a dealer,or selling member

There are members here who could draw this up,all legal,bankers here,too

I've seen a similar system woirk,for homeowners,through contractors pad licensing,it was like a back up,foir their insurance
-Vince
 
I do not want to run it,though,lol
I just see a way for problems now & in the future ,very easily taken care of..

-Vince
 
ksjumpmd said:
In my opinion, you want to reward bad behavior here. The timing and use of Mr Norfleet's medical problems as an excuse for nondelivery is highly suspect to many. Nothing takes the place of accepting responsibility for your own bad choices and bad practices and making it right to those who have been wronged. When someone else bails you out, it tends to somehow justify the bad behavior and implies "It's not your fault" and most people will never truely learn to accept responsibility and regain true honor like that.
Click to expand...

I see your valid point,but every deal in this forum are done by humans,who can and will make errors & have probs.

Why not a back up plan.A dollar a member & there is a good fund right there
-Vince
 
VCM3 said:
every deal in this forum are done by humans,who can and will make errors & have probs.
-Vince
Click to expand...


I could not agree more. These are hard times and we all have problems and make errors. But it is how we choose to deal with them that makes us who we are. There are humans that make mistakes and deal with them honorably and learn from the experience. There are those who don't learn from them and repeat the mistakes over and over. This becomes a pattern of behavior that becomes second nature if it goes unchecked. In reviewing the comments of several others in these recent threads, I see a PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR that has been going on for years and apparently involves many people/victims. -- Not a single mistake or incident. It is this pattern of dishonesty and irresponsibility that is the issue at hand here in my opinion.

I commend and very much appreciate the kind thoughts and honest intent to help a fellow forum member here, but I urge those who choose to help in this fashion to read the threads in detail and decide if they are truly helping, or in fact - really enabling and prolonging a much deeper problem.
 
Vince,

Nice thought and your heart is in the right place. But enabling a pattern of dishonesty of this magnitude is inherently wrong, in my opinion.

I will in the interest of fair play ask 1 simple question that I would like to know the answer to:

I realize he has done this for years now, but has he ever behaved honorably here in regard to selling knives that he advertised ready to ship and actually shipped them, or has this been the story from the start?
 
All good points

My idea was not to just pay off,or enable

The rules in place for such a fund,would insure,that after a set amount (I said 2,originally,like a second chance),of bad deals,bye bye & banned
In this case or any,there would be never any more than that said amount of bad deals/people out $$

Also,Gilbert seems to be the latest,I was using his name because of timing,this idea is for everyone

But I agree,it may not be able to be worked out,or agreed that it is a good thing.


Just ideas,Thanks guys,
-Vince
 
This idea could also be argued,"you should do your homework before a purchase"

But in my experience,a lot of good makers/good reps,the wait time is crazy

A fund like this,in a way,helps promote new makers here,keeping them "in check" at the same time

Also a backup for BF's site problems
What hobby in life costs nothing ?
-Vince
 
I think your heart is in the right place , and I wish Norfleet a healthy recovery from what ails him , but it seems as though he had somewhat of a scam-like thing going , listing knives that were advertised as finished , sold , then some not delivered.

Is it the BF members responsibility to bail him out ? I would say no.
Had he been more honest and upfront , and if it were his medical issue alone , then I would say indeed it would be an excellent idea to help out. But to have knives owed , then list more knives for sale before completing those that were already sold , bad business.

I hope he gets things back on track , he is one of the makers whom I have on numerous occasions pondered ordering a knife from.

Bailing him out for his health issues is one thing , for shoddy business practices is another.

Also.... what about the buyers of other makers that have since " fallen into **insert excuse here**" ?
Duncan
Obenauf
Reif
Corkum
etc...
 
Vince, Interesting thread and good ideas. But what IF the fund was created by members choosing to have BUYERS insurance, if they paid into the fund, bought or paid for any knife from any seller who turned out to be a fraud. They would get their money back from the fund. Let us protect the guys who are willing to pay for the protection. If the seller does not deliver, I personally think they ought to be banned. No excuses on saying a knife is ready to ship and then not shipping. That is theft. Now, I realize I might have a heart attack and not deliver product, but I would not be posting again either, I realize there may be exceptions, but they would be few.

Just another prospective and thoughts
and my .02. No need to say it, I know, it
is not worth much.
Jim

BTW: Why are sellers allowed to stay members when they have stiffed so many folks?
 
The idea here is to regulate & organize for buying & selling in the future of BF's.
-Vince
 
Sounds a bit like "welfare"...I really think that you are writing from the heart...but I cant make sense of this idea. When do we stop? Who benefits? Why dont we all pay $150 a year for a membership and get 3 knives anually..through a lottery, with the knives provided by different makers..the value of each knife decided by a team of expert members, the team will be assembled by another team of members...
You can see that I am being sarcastic, and I dont want to hurt any feelings, I just feel that Norfleet isnt delivering..and to make matters worse, he is using his limited mobility as an excuse to serve his own ends. I hope that I am wrong, but whenever he has been questioned about dates..the answers always the same. I dont have a dog in this fight, but I think that it should be clear that Norfleet shouldnt be selling a damn thing until he is caught up..and after that, he needs to build and then sell...not taking in orders.
Again, I hope I dont offend, and I will bow out of the conversation now...I just dont want a "fund" to bail out members after they get screwed...I think the rent would go through the roof around here. Gene
 
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I have found the risk of loss to be so low here at BF - especially the risk of loss from makers - that I am willing to accept that risk without throwing money in a pot. The whole notion of collectivization just rubs me the wrong way too. If such a thing were funded by makers, for example, the cost would be passed along to the innocent consumer. So I give this one a thumbs down, however it might be administered. Further, one can greatly reduce the risk by carefully choosing from who you purchase. Its no guarantee, but a careful consumer can usually buy with confidence. If someone buys from a new guy with 17 posts, and ends up getting hosed, I don't have much sympathy. JMO. :)
 
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