Norfleet Restitution ?

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VCM3 said:
sunnyd,when you say,"he has done this,for years" are you talking about making knives,or,wrong doing ?
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Specifically, advertising knives that are supposed to be completed and ready to ship to prospective buyers and buyers here on the Knifemakers For Sale Forum..

Then taking the buyers money immediately and delivering nothing in an appropriate fashion, and delivering some in 6 months or more.
 
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""but to regulate the potential of wrong doing to others""

VCM3, I know it's close to November 3rd, but really.
I'm sorry that Norfleet has health issues and doesn't seem able to complete his orders.
I'm sorry that he is allowed to list new sales threads to suck in new buyers.
I'm sorry that the guys on my list are not likely to get thier knife or money.........or at the least very soon.
I'm sorry that sometimes we have to get on list at all, but.........................
you places your money and takes your chances.
Been there and done that myself.
I'm also sorry, but I pay enough to insurance companies already.
It's the least return on any money I've ever spent.
I get more value out of pay toilets.................js

It's a fine Saturday afternoon and I'm currently loosing my ass on a bet with the Oregon Ducks.
But I won't be buying a Norfleet, sad really, he does nice work.

Leadfoot
 
I would rather see a fund established to help members in need. Maybe a member gets sick and cannot work, a family member gets sick, a family emergency,etc.

We as buyers need to make certain (to the best of our abilities) to buy only from makers with a proven record of honesty and integrity. If you chose to buy from someone who may be a risk then you must assume all the risk.

Your hearts are in the right place, it's your wallets that are not.......................
 
A knife makers thoughts.........

Vince very good intentions...... though....

Say I get hurt or something happens to me?
The cost to survive would be way more than a fund like this could sustain. ( I think? )
Also I do NOT sale or offer to sale ANY knife that is NOT done.
If a maker does this - HE IS TAKING AN ORDER - NOT SELLING A DONE - COMPLETED KNIFE. ( And he should NOT take a payment yet until done - completed. )
And he should be up front about this.

So in this idea, the knife should be done as advertised and ready to go.
So IF I get hurt there is some one here around me to mail it.
And IF I was taking orders and got hurt, same there would be some one here to notify the customer and he could cancel the order
or decide to wait for my recovery, with out being out dollars.
Cause we all know a maker should not take a deposit. Right?

Some of you should educate new members how to use the search and to look at the profile pages for feed back here. And the GOOD - BAD - & UGLY

It has been said here already, Gilbert is disabled, that never stopped him from making a great knife. It was his business deals that got him in trouble.
When you get too deep in a whole STOP DIGGING!!!!!!

Doing good business, Communication is the key on the forums and in person to be honest.

JUST MY THOUGHTS ONLY.
Hope it helps some?

Take care

Todd Davison

Edit to add...... Also, I think as soon as a maker OR seller has TWO bad deals,
their account should be locked until resolved? Or something like that?
Cause we all know BAD things can happen to GOOD people? ( right? ):confused:


.
 
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bigal2me said:
A knife makers thoughts......... [...]
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That post could be a sticky required reading for makers and buyers. Many of us are aware but too many are not, and Todd just summed it all up neatly and clearly.

It might not be a bad idea if some of the more accomplished knifemaker/businessmen could put together a basic text on how to organize the business end: an updated website, organized communications, cash flow.

Look at how someone like Dan Koster has almost automated his outreach and contact with his customers, actual and potential. He does this with a life full of other responsibilities and with his share of sickness and injury.

Obviously many other great new knifemakers here do the same. One satisfied customer after another. I wrote to Christof Harper (koyote) about a knife he'd sold and wanted a similar knife but modified. He got it to me faster than he said he might.

But it all ends up in the same place, casual or formal -- can the knifemaker meet his commitments of producing and shipping as agreed?
 
These are more the positive responses I was hoping to read & see here w/ I started this thread (my ramblings,lol) Thanks for adding,
-Vince
 
I live less that a hour from Norfleet and have offered my help many times.. He has health problems and Business Problems!!!!!! Time lines are everything in a tough economy, I really feel Honored now, when someone spends there extra money with me.. Gil has burned bridges that cannot be repaired and that is sad!!! Jeremy
 
Even if an elaborate plan never comes into play.....
I just can't believe that w/the info & sub forums like the Knifemakers 4 sale & the GB&U here,that 9 guys got duped (leadfoots list)

I just felt w/ I wrote this,there has to be some way to organize ,so this can't go like this again.I can see 2 or three guys getting the no show,but 9,hard to beleive it happened on BF's,in these times,to boot
-Vince
 
Esav Benyamin said:
and buyers.

But it all ends up in the same place, casual or formal -- can the knifemaker meet his commitments of producing and shipping as agreed?
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Yes and buyers....


Not to derail the thread,

But a while back I sold a knife, the guy wanted to send money order?
I hate to wait, but I said OK.
Then after waiting OVER a week after he said he mailed it? NO money order?
I contact him and he still tells me he mailed it?
So I tell him, if I do not receive it in three more days, I will sale the knife to another buyer.
Well I did sale it to another buyer and I never seen the money order from first guy? I think he lied to me about sending it?

So buyers also should BE HONEST - if something happens, just say so.
We're all humans, stuff happens, ex specially in this day an age? :rolleyes::D

Later

Todd
 
Nice idea, but if BFC and Spark administered this, it would open him up to further liability, and I can assure you he won't even consider it.

It has been said here time after time again; DO NOT send a knifemaker money unless he/she is ready to deliver.

IMHO, and many others, a legitimate knifemaker should only require a deposit if you are requesting exotic, expensive materials, and the maker has specifically stated thet the deposit is non refundable.

Use common sense here folks. Pay these people with USPS money orders or paypal. This way, you have records and a way to go after your money. But don't pay unless shipment is awaiting the money.
 
The problem is that no one's got a crystal ball to know who might encounter trouble, to what degree, involving how many people, etc. A system designed to prevent or forewarn of a problem such as this is never going to be foolproof. There could always be a situation that circumvents or overwhelms it. A system to give aid to those who meet certain conditions will eventually encounter someone who will deceive and defraud it. Anybody want to pick up the check when that happens?

To the idea of there has to be a better way - yes, I agree. But I think it comes from everyone being more aware and taking the time to research and communicate from the start. The forum community at large and/or its administrators are not the ones to bear the financial burden of unpleasant outcomes. While the members use the forum as a way to take part in transactions it still comes down to the specific people involved. We can all help by giving honest and appropriate feedback about whoever we deal with, but making judgments and dealing with the consequences remains the responsibility of each individual. We can put all the information available in a given place but we can't make anyone consider it, or even look at it to begin with.
 
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jujigatame said:
To the idea of there has to be a better way - yes, I agree. But I think it comes from everyone being more aware and taking the time to research and communicate from the start. The forum community at large and/or its administrators are not the ones to bear the financial burden of unpleasant outcomes. While the members use the forum as a way to take part in transactions it still comes down to the specific people involved. We can all help by giving honest and appropriate feedback about whoever we deal with, but making judgments and dealing with the consequences remains the responsibility of each individual. We can put all the information available in a given place but we can't make anyone consider it, or even look at it to begin with.
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Very well put.
 
sunnyd said:
Specifically, advertising knives that are supposed to be completed and ready to ship to prospective buyers and buyers here on the Knifemakers For Sale Forum..

Then taking the buyers money immediately and delivering nothing in an appropriate fashion, and delivering some in 6 months or more.
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if he is doing this, saying he has something ready and then he takes $$ & doesnt actually have it ready, imho thats bullshit plain and simple and borders on being (some would say is) a crook, if this is true i have -0- sympathy with him.

if you cant at least trust someone to have what they say they have and its ready to go, ready to ship, then really what can ya believe from the guy??

imho there is just too many dead honest folks to deal with to ever get involved in BS like that i dont care what kinda work he does there are plenty of others who do good work at a decent price AND you can believe what they tell ya.
 
SIFU1A said:
if he is doing this, saying he has something ready and then he takes $$ & doesnt actually have it ready, imho thats bullshit plain and simple and borders on being (some would say is) a crook, if this is true i have -0- sympathy with him.

if you cant at least trust someone to have what they say they have and its ready to go, ready to ship, then really what can ya believe from the guy??

imho there is just too many dead honest folks to deal with to ever get involved in BS like that i dont care what kinda work he does there are plenty of others who do good work at a decent price AND you can believe what they tell ya.
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My point exactly. Read the following post # 33 in the other thread here below:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=592413&page=7
 
sunnyd & all,I have realized,that by starting this thread ,with the intensions I had& my responses, I may have pissed some of you off,and I apologize for that,to all

I wish Gilbert good health outcome & with all his problems,I truly feel bad for the guys out a knife/knives

But it is so,you really need to look into & do your homework when buying custom knives.You get what you pay for,weather it be money,or time time or both that you pay

I realize now,there is not much help one can do in a situation like this,but only to warn & inform,for the future & I only hope I helped
-Vince
 
VCM3 said:
sunnyd & all,I have realized,that by starting this thread ,with the intensions I had& my responses, I may have pissed some of you off,and I apologize for that,to all

I wish Gilbert good health outcome & with all his problems,I truly feel bad for the guys out a knife/knives

But it is so,you really need to look into & do your homework when buying custom knives.You get what you pay for,weather it be money,or time time or both that you pay

I realize now,there is not much help one can do in a situation like this,but only to warn & inform,for the future & I only hope I helped
-Vince
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Vince,

You did not piss me off whatsoever. No apology is required. I was simply asking a question of you and anyone else for that matter. Which by the way never got answered. But it doesn't matter now because its of no consequence to me at this point.

I couldn't agree more with your suggestions of doing your homework on a knife maker or any other investment you spend hard earned money on. I think this thread was started from the heart, as I already have previously stated. It also invoked a very good discussion here and I learned quite a lot of good ideas and opinions from reading the posts here from all the members who participated. We will not always agree and that IMO is what makes thing so interesting. This is after all a discussion forum where many different viewpoints are shared.

Thanks,

Anthony
 
Anthony,I realize I did not piss you off,sometimes I can't type what I am trying to say

But I realized when you posted about how this happenned to Ron way back a year '07,that out of these guys here,they have been so patient,watching Gilbert list knives while some waited
I have to give them credit ,they are patient,moreso than I could've probably been
When I first spyed his knives I too was interested,they certainly looked to be clean work & I am drawn to that as most knifenuts are I was waiting to see a "City Knife" created as said on his site As I waited the BS unfolded

But now,I see ,his dealings go back a ways ,this thread has actually woke me up to how this is prevented,through discussion here & I thank all you guys
Do yur homework
I have 3 knives inbound from a maker,and others on order,too I did business with them far back as 4 years ago,their price increases do not bother me,the cost of living up,they are making a living as full time makers
You get what you pay for

But this does not mean that all new up coming talented makers are not good to deal with One maker posted how Gil's actions hurts them,I posted this too.I agree,not good But look into these guys,there are a lot of great makers in BF's FS area and in the makers gallery,too.

BF's was the first knife forum I joined,and it has a lot of information available,use it wisely. Thanks everyone,
-Vince
 
So again,I come along,"let's bail out Gil"..
I can see now,if I was one of the burned guys,I'd be pissed

I really started the thread thinking of the guys out the $$
The name of the thread should've been more along the lines of "Learn from Norfleet" or something like that
-Vince
 
No worries Vince, I think we all can learn from threads like this.
If there wasn't a place for this type of debate, where would we be.

Happy knife buying


Leadfoot
 
Horton_Knives said:
I live less that a hour from Norfleet and have offered my help many times.. He has health problems and Business Problems!!!!!! Time lines are everything in a tough economy, I really feel Honored now, when someone spends there extra money with me.. Gil has burned bridges that cannot be repaired and that is sad!!! Jeremy
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I remember reading you offer to help him if he ever needed it. I really do need to buy one of your knives soon you seem to be a very honorable maker with good designs.

We all can have problems be it health financial or whatever. It seems most on this forum can understand that. Really the most important thing is being honest and giving good communication. If you do those two things most of us will be very happy customers. I really think if Mr. Norfleet would come on here and post and give a truely honest post and let us know what the real situation is. Most of us would be willing to give him a second chance. But it seems like he gives excuses instead of facts. I think it has gotten to the point were most people don't believe his excuses now. He advertises a finished knife ready to ship. When you complete a sale for a finished knife print a label attach a post it note to the knife with the name address and info on the person that bought it. Then if you cannot complete the order yourself someone else can easily help out if any hard times come upon you. He has been offered help by Mr Horton. I am sure Mr Horton would not think twice about picking up the knives and taking them to the post office for shipping or even boxing them and shipping them for him.
 
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