Now a warning to the folks

[JTR357]

I don't like it when a Vendor or Knife Maker asks for a payment via the Gift Option which to me is an unethical.

I don't like it either,but it has a lot to do with the way things are worded.

For instance,If a seller says "USPS MO preferred,but if you want to use paypal I ask that you pick up the fees".That's OK with me(even if it is against pp rules).

If a seller says"I only accept paypal & you pay the fees".That's not OK with me.

 

[chadridv]

I won't deal with anyone who:

1. Asks that I use the gift option. It's dishonest and too many deals go bad that way.
2. Lists a x% added to use paypal. Include it in the original price if you're that worried about it.
3. Won't ship insured. That's just stupid, too many deals go bad that way. Insurance is really protection fo the seller, they will more than likely be expected to refund the money either way, a quick seach of these forums will prove that.
4. Doesn't take responsibility for their own actions. It is the SELLERS responsibility to get the item to the buyer or to refund the money if something goes wrong.

I fall into categories 1 & 2. As for 3 & 4, I always insure my packages and anyone I've ever dealt with can attest to my honor, honesty and willingness to make things right no matter what. It seems to me that if your issue with paypals "gift" option is an ethical one, that's one thing, but if you're worried about deals going bad, your concern should easily be wiped assuming you're dealing with a person who does not fall into the category of your 4th listed item. "Responsibility".

In fact, if you are willing to see a seller as responsible and trustworthy in all the ways you mention (in #4) it would seem all your other "won't deal with" items become irrelevant.

For example: If i sell you a knife, and there's no discussion of insurance, You WILL get your knife, or you'll get your money back. Are you saying you won't deal with me unless i prove i bought insurance? IMO, i don't need to prove that to you, because as the seller i can guarantee you're getting the knife or your money back.

As for adding x% for PP fees, I really don't see the difference between pricing it in, or asking someone to pay the fees. It's just a wording issue. I personally don't just add it into the price, because i don't have the ethical hang up of using PP gift, therefor leaving the buyer the option to save money. We all have our opinion on the ethics and that's fine, but the only thing it does to say "buyer will add 4% for PP fees", is to skip the steps of pricing questions and price drop re-calculations.

Either way, I felt the need to respond, but again... the point of this was not to discuss buying and selling preferences and policies... it was to call out a post that was unnecessarily dropped in a sales thread warning people of the dangers of that sellers terms.

If nothing else, it's good to warn the new members of what could go wrong and how to avoid it.

agreed, but not in someones sales thread. Right?

 

[Esav Benyamin]

agreed, but not in someones sales thread. Right?

Agreed. In fact, I'm the one who extracted those posts from the sales thread and made them into a separate thread here. What I should also have done was infract the people who trashed the original thread, which is what I've been doing. Been too tired lately.

 

[chadridv]

Agreed. In fact, I'm the one who extracted those posts from the sales thread and made them into a separate thread here. What I should also have done was infract the people who trashed the original thread, which is what I've been doing. Been too tired lately.

i hear ya. well keep up the good work! we appreciate it. I just comment in the most ridiculous GB&U thread ever. I'm sure you know what i speak of, it must be a moderators nightmare. good luck to you!

 

[chavez556]

What if you purchase it with your credit card and do a gift option?

 

[RayseM]

That would depend on the terms of your credit card if it was a straight credit card purchase, but I think you are asking about paying PayPal with a credit card - I think the PayPal terms would rule. Have to ask your credit card rep. to get clarification on this. Good luck with that.

 

[Gatogordo]

I fall into categories 1 & 2.

Your choice to be unethical and it will certainly be my choice to never do any business with you.

 

[Jack O'Neill]

Folks , let me clarify some things here that I have seemed to cause . 1st , I PM'ed the seller to apologize for causing any problems . My intent was not to shed a poor light on him . I am a seller also and my major concern is for MY CUSTOMERS . Therefore I was only trying to inform the customer that they forfeit the right to dispute , if that became necessary using the pay option he was asking for .

I apparently was wrong in posting that in the sale thread .

2nd , there is a lot of talk about the ethics of this option of payment being discussed here . Are you aware of the fact that it is against paypal's rules for a seller of goods or services to ask the buyer to pay with the gift/cash option ? It is also against there rules to ask for a surcharge on a pay-pal payment . Is this not then an attempt to defraud a business ?

There are a lot of buyers here on the forums who will not buy from a seller asking for this option . Is he not then , maybe , hurting his own chances for a sale ? For me it throws up a red flag about a seller , if he is willing to defraud a business which services he is using , how will he treat me ?

Enough said , just needed to share my thoughts . Sorry for any trouble caused .

 

[chadridv]

Hey Jack,

As one of, or the, driving force of this thread, I'd like to thank you for weighing in. There are really two issues here; the question of posting inappropriately in a someones sales thread, and business ethics directly in regards to Paypal.

You have made it clear that you think it was wrong to post in his thread, and you sent him an apology PM. You're totally square in my book.

As for the paypal ethics, it is certainly an interesting discussion, but definitely not the issue i was raising.

thanks for commenting!

Folks , let me clarify some things here that I have seemed to cause . 1st , I PM'ed the seller to apologize for causing any problems . My intent was not to shed a poor light on him . I am a seller also and my major concern is for MY CUSTOMERS . Therefore I was only trying to inform the customer that they forfeit the right to dispute , if that became necessary using the pay option he was asking for .

I apparently was wrong in posting that in the sale thread .

2nd , there is a lot of talk about the ethics of this option of payment being discussed here . Are you aware of the fact that it is against paypal's rules for a seller of goods or services to ask the buyer to pay with the gift/cash option ? It is also against there rules to ask for a surcharge on a pay-pal payment . Is this not then an attempt to defraud a business ?

There are a lot of buyers here on the forums who will not buy from a seller asking for this option . Is he not then , maybe , hurting his own chances for a sale ? For me it throws up a red flag about a seller , if he is willing to defraud a business which services he is using , how will he treat me ?

Enough said , just needed to share my thoughts . Sorry for any trouble caused .

 

[chadridv]

Your choice to be unethical and it will certainly be my choice to never do any business with you.

cool. i suppose i won't see you around then. To maintain your strong ethical standpoint you should probably avoid a few companies you might do business with at some point;

Disney
McDonalds
Walmart
American Express
Chevron
mobil
BP
(90% of oil companies)
Every TV Network - no more idol : (
MTV
K-Mart
America Express
AT&T
jp morgan
Sallie Mae
Freddie Mac
Goldman Sachs
Merril Lynch
Citigroup
Kraft
Nestle
Toys 'r us

I think you get my point and the list of course goes on... oh Paypal and eBay are not among my favorites either especially regarding business ethics. You don't work for PayPal do you?

Oh yeah you should probably not do business with the companies that provide our medicine as well. They've done some really wonderfully frightening things.

 

[Chief Engineer]

cool. i suppose i won't see you around then. To maintain your strong ethical standpoint you should probably avoid a few companies you might do business with at some point;

Disney
McDonalds
Walmart
American Express
Chevron
mobil
BP
(90% of oil companies)
Every TV Network - no more idol : (
MTV
K-Mart
America Express
AT&T
jp morgan
Sallie Mae
Freddie Mac
Goldman Sachs
Merril Lynch
Citigroup
Kraft
Nestle
Toys 'r us

I think you get my point and the list of course goes on... oh Paypal and eBay are not among my favorites either especially regarding business ethics. You don't work for PayPal do you?

Oh yeah you should probably not do business with the companies that provide our medicine as well. They've done some really wonderfully frightening things.

Whatever you do, don't tell him about PP/Ebay settling a class action lawsuit for 30 million two months ago for ripping off their sellers.
We won't get into the 28 states that have sucessfully sued either.
Or the 2.8 billion lawsuit their in the middle of now.

 

[wolfmann601]

Why would I send someone I don't know a gift of cash simply because he asked that I do so?

 

[EMT_Lee]

I fall into categories 1 & 2. As for 3 & 4, I always insure my packages and anyone I've ever dealt with can attest to my honor, honesty and willingness to make things right no matter what. It seems to me that if your issue with paypals "gift" option is an ethical one, that's one thing, but if you're worried about deals going bad, your concern should easily be wiped assuming you're dealing with a person who does not fall into the category of your 4th listed item. "Responsibility".

In fact, if you are willing to see a seller as responsible and trustworthy in all the ways you mention (in #4) it would seem all your other "won't deal with" items become irrelevant.

For example: If i sell you a knife, and there's no discussion of insurance, You WILL get your knife, or you'll get your money back. Are you saying you won't deal with me unless i prove i bought insurance? IMO, i don't need to prove that to you, because as the seller i can guarantee you're getting the knife or your money back.

As for adding x% for PP fees, I really don't see the difference between pricing it in, or asking someone to pay the fees. It's just a wording issue. I personally don't just add it into the price, because i don't have the ethical hang up of using PP gift, therefor leaving the buyer the option to save money. We all have our opinion on the ethics and that's fine, but the only thing it does to say "buyer will add 4% for PP fees", is to skip the steps of pricing questions and price drop re-calculations.

Either way, I felt the need to respond, but again... the point of this was not to discuss buying and selling preferences and policies... it was to call out a post that was unnecessarily dropped in a sales thread warning people of the dangers of that sellers terms.



agreed, but not in someones sales thread. Right?

Here's the thing: I don't know you. I won't know until -after- the deal if you're on the up-and-up. And, by asking me to strip myself of my buyer's protection (i.e. using the PP 'gift' option), you are sending up a red flag. Trying to cheat Paypal also sends up a red flag. If you're willing to screw paypal, you might be willing to screw me. This is the thought-process of people who refuse to do business with people who skirt Paypal's rules.

 

[KiljoyKutlery]

those are cute and different .

Now a warning to the folks . Using the PP gift/cash option , you forfeit all buyer protection .

Poor form. :foot: I realize you are trying to help SOMEONE, while fouling up someones thread, ....well, I just dont get it. If you have an opinion on how folks should complete deals..you know where to post it.
GBU

I hope you guys work this out.

EDIT: finished reading, looks like the parties involved are out of the dogfight..so am I.

 

[bacustomknives]

All i can say is that there were decent human beings looking out for one another and it turned out to be hell on the home front,jack and all the others i agree , i am a major seller on this forum and wouldnt dare ask for a gift option or an additional 3%,just add the fee to your price and except the paypal payment that way,the seller is protected aswell as the buyer, it really make sense. Then if there is any dispute ,let paypal settle it ,thats what they get there 3% for ,its there job
just my opinion!
Bill

 

[chadridv]

Here's the thing: I don't know you. I won't know until -after- the deal if you're on the up-and-up. And, by asking me to strip myself of my buyer's protection (i.e. using the PP 'gift' option), you are sending up a red flag. Trying to cheat Paypal also sends up a red flag. If you're willing to screw paypal, you might be willing to screw me. This is the thought-process of people who refuse to do business with people who skirt Paypal's rules.

ok i need to respond point by point here.

you're right... you don't know me. In fact you could have a number of successful deals with members here on BF and still not really know them. However, when you get involved in a deal with someone, right off the bat, check their feedback. See how long they've been a member. See how many posts they have. If you are suspicious, or even just to be safe, search their name in the GB&U forum. There are many very good ways to detect what type of person you're getting involved with.

second, just to be clear, I am not the author of the original sales thread. He happens to be a very good friend of mine, and I told him straight up that i think he should leave the option to add 4% for the fees or pay by "gift". Either way, I have never personally made a sales thread anywhere requiring the buyer pay with PP personal. That is not how i do it. My sales threads read exactly as such...
"PLease use PP "gift" or add 4%"

Third, I appreciate that you are taking us through the thought process of potential buyers, but I am having a hard time differentiating what is your thought process and what is the generalization. Either way, i will comment by saying; if you see me leaving the option to use PP "gift" as me screwing over PP, fine. That's your opinion. PP has screwed me over plenty of times as well, that's my opinion. If you consider it a red flag to offer a buyer "personal" options you should red flag half the sellers here on BF.

Lastly, I still consider myself the driving force of creating this thread. I have said everything i need to say regarding the PP "gift" debate. I will say one last time, that my original intent was to discuss what i considered to be in inappropriate and unruly post left in someone's sales thread. My intention was never to debate the PP terms of a private sale.

I will end by saying this. Last night i read the longest thread i've ever seen. It was 35 pages maybe. This is a 2 page thread! if you want to comment in it, please take take the time to read through it all, because we are falling into a heavy pattern of redundancy.

Questions have been answered. Opinions have been stated. Apologies have been made! It's only two pages. We can all save so much wasted time, if both pages are just scanned through.
(btw-this last paragraph is not directed towards you EMT-Lee, it is just a general statement)

 

[elkins45]

Whatever you do, don't tell him about PP/Ebay settling a class action lawsuit for 30 million two months ago for ripping off their sellers.
We won't get into the 28 states that have sucessfully sued either.
Or the 2.8 billion lawsuit their in the middle of now.

I doubt you'll find many people (certainly not me) who think PP is an exemplary beacon of sunshine and light with their business practices. But their bad behavior doesn't give me license to be dishonest as well.

Two wrongs don't make a right, as the old saying goes.

EDIT: I just edited my signature for the first time since I got one just to make the gift option point. Doubt anyone will care or even notice much, but it makes me fell self-righteous and that's what matters most

 

[Chief Engineer]

I doubt you'll find many people (certainly not me) who think PP is an exemplary beacon of sunshine and light with their business practices. But their bad behavior doesn't give me license to be dishonest as well.

Two wrongs don't make a right, as the old saying goes.

EDIT: I just edited my signature for the first time since I got one just to make the gift option point. Doubt anyone will care or even notice much, but it makes me fell self-righteous and that's what matters most

Let me start by saying I fully understand what you are saying. I must say however, that I am totally baffled and bewildered, that many posters think a multi-billion dollar operation, offers a "gift option" out of the goodness of their hearts. People have got to understand, if it wasn't somehow to their benifit,(can you say tax write-off) it would not be offered. Many of their business practices may be considered suspect at best, but they are not stupid.

 

[Gatogordo]

Let me start by saying I fully understand what you are saying. I must say however, that I am totally baffled and bewildered, that many posters think a multi-billion dollar operation, offers a "gift option" out of the goodness of their hearts. People have got to understand, if it wasn't somehow to their benifit,(can you say tax write-off) it would not be offered. Many of their business practices may be considered suspect at best, but they are not stupid.

I am totally baffled and bewildered that some posters seem to think lying so they can steal 3% of the total owed is okay? I am equally totally baffled and bewildered why someone can't understand that the word "gift" means what it means, not "I'll lie and say that it is a gift when, in fact, it is a purchase so I can avoid paying the fees."

I've said it before, but it is absolutely amazing how small the amount of money for which some people will sell their integrity. Honor is not something you can put on and take off like a used shirt. You've either got it or you don't.

 

[JackHammer]

Screwed this up, let's try it again.