Off Topic Off Topic (Possibly Controversial)

Something tells me the kid riding shotgun should brush up on his Ned Beatty pig squeal impersonations cause the bad news it, Burt's not around to come rescue him this time from his "Kin Folk"

OK, how about a feel good moment-
TIGER WIN #80 -
 
Yeah, wow... poor judgement of the dead guy to not walk away when guns were pulled in the first place.. poor judgement on the skins team to bring guns in to a dumpster fight (I mean seriously, over a mattress!!).. even poorer judgement on big momma for not calming her papa bear down knowing all to well children are present, keeping them safe and setting a good example is the utmost importance.... nope her thought process is “Ima gonna film my man”.

So now papa bear is dead, the skins team better get used to being greasy and all lube’d like they were in the video, a woman lost a partner, the children are scarred for life and if not properly handled(counseling) will turn to drugs or crime and worse yet.... the flipp’n trash people as a result of their own complacency and incompetence Caused this angst of neighbors... get out of your truck and throw that mattress in your shitty compacter and be on your way... perhaps you could save a life by just doing the right thing!!

A little integrity, pride and understanding can go a long way:) I feel for those children more then any one else.
 
Here's my take: what really were they arguing about? A mattress, or being right? I would never verbally engage a pair like dad and son, who postured with firearms, much less taunt, threaten and challenge them! Dad had his finger on the trigger during the entire video. Hello? I am of the opinion dad intended to shoot at his earliest opportunity regardless of the outcome. He did n't come there to defend, he came there to punish.
Stand your ground, fine, but make it something worth it, like your home, your safety or your family's safety. We sometimes assume no sane person is going to shoot us over a verbal argument; we also assume drivers will stay on their side of the center line on the highway. Drugs, alcohol, mental illness, hate, all change that, into something that cannot be calculated. The indicators were there that something was gonna go horribly wrong, one way or the other.

For the OP: "I personally think that when someone hyper aggressively approaches you with multiple threats of killing you and your son and after multiple warnings have been calmly and clearly relayed — that it constitutes a justifiable situation to deter an oncoming threat. "

Your knife is not your first resort, it is your last, just like a gun. The options of using Fists, feet, and running away are all going to be considered by a jury, even if you are not required by law to do that.
Very few people are going to be with you if you cut or stab someone, unless you have been substantially assaulted or shot, and the attack is not going to stop. "Hero cuts assailant's liver out during robbery." or "Good Samaritan slashes would be killer's throat." That headline is not going to happen. People are going to want emotional distance from that situation, and you will be the bad guy.
 
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Yes. What an all around tragedy that will badly affect many lives for years to come. I, and my best friend who lives in Fresno, California - have been reading and discussing the very thorough and thoughtful posts by you BF members.

Been an interesting topic for discussion and you all did a fine job in presenting your points of view. I recently served on a jury and your thoughts remind me of that day. And I went to that duty with enthusiasm. Only one day trial and was one of the more interesting experiences in my life. Have a great week, all.
 
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Sometimes deadly force is required, I'm not going to get into much details but I was in a situation in my early teens that involved the shooting and killing of an armed criminal fleeing police that broke down our door. I ran for my 1911 but since i was not allowed to keep the gun loaded by the time i had the mag off the shelf and ready i took a 38 to the shin. After returning fire i remembered what my grandfather taught me and put 5 shots where it counted. 24 years later and the smell of warm blood still makes me want to puke and get anxiety attacks. Watching these sorts of videos or hearing about similar crap in the news makes me pissed simply because of all the unnecessary bs that leads up to the shootings. You should never start pulling out weapons just to settle arguments all you're doing is asking for a reason to start shooting and should be penalized for such stupidity.

Being said i still shoot near daily and am licensed for concealed carry but i would never brandish my firearms as i said above doing so just escalates things. Unless you're absolutely in life threatening danger keep your shit together and muzzles down.

All these stupid people are what causes responsible gun owners to suffer due to stiffer regulations, idiotic atf rules that always gets circumvented in one way of the other aka the "pistol brace" which basically can put off the shelf AK or AR15 sbrs into the hands of alot of people who have no business owning such weapons. Great for responsible shooters yeah, but honestly 65% of the gun owners out there are just to stupid to own a bb gun.
 
That’s quite an experience, StealthCaliber. I will think about it for many days ahead. Thank you.
 
To the OP: anyone who threatens my life or the life of a loved one is going to be seeing the business end of my Glock barking at them.

I'll try to walk away, but in many cases it's not possible. California being different than where I live, I could see them going after the "victim" here because that state (along with NY) are whacky when it comes to these things, but IMHO the instigator/aggressor in a deadly force situation is always the one to blame. Without them, the deadly force situation wouldn't be present.

As long as the attack is thwarted or I (and/or my loved ones) are able to escape.....then that's good. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

IMHO, one of the most important jobs a man has is protecting the ones he loves from harm, and being proficient in the dealing of violence to be able to do that job. I don't relish the idea, but it's a cross I will carry willingly.
 
I've not been super active on BF recently so I found it interesting this was posted here but I am all for it and Rob-Mob is an old school homie so I'm glad he brought this up. I've been following this story myself as I think it's important as a CCW holder to find perspective in other peoples misfortune and use it a learning opportunity and try to avoid these situations myself.

As a CCW holder, I dodge confrontation anyway I can. The last thing I want to do is shoot or hurt someone unless they give me no choice and are threatening myself of family. Carrying a gun every single day has made me a more responsible adult. That being said, there is background here that needs to be mentioned and maybe it has already but the dead guy has been arrested 280 times. Let that sink in...280 times.

The father and son duo probably carry a gun to the dumpster because they felt a need to. Maybe there was a prior event that gave cause to do so and even if there wasn't, I see no wrong in packing while taking the garbage out. The orange shirt (dead) guy was huge. Clearly, he was mentally unstable, his FB post he made himself he spoke of threatening the mailman with death if he delivered to his house again. In that same post he spoke of being on medications.

Why was the dude out walking the streets with a wrap sheet that thick?
Why didn't his wife deescalate the situation? (Because she wanted to see dead guy kick some rear)
Why didn't he just go inside if the guys had guns?
Lots of unanswered questions but I think most of us know why.

We could also say, why didn't the father and son go inside?
Why didn't they call the police?
The answer to these questions IMO is the police have been called before and the old man was tired of being harassed by the giant felon.

I see this a few of ways.
1. If someone twice your size and 30 years younger than you swings a bat at you, that is deadly force and you have the right to respond accordingly. After what I believe was a bat swing followed up by a double tap, he threw the bat at the old man and the son gave orange dead guy a shotgun blast to the head. Goodbye, bad guy!

2. If someone threatens your life and your son's life, how many times to do they have to say that before you take him seriously? Do you wait for him to kill one of you?

3. Would this even be a question if the father son duo had been police officers? No. Their guns would have been drawn and aimed at the orange dead guy the entire time and shots would have been fired prior to the old man's except they would have emptied a magazine into the guy. I'm not hating on cops, my brother is a police chief and my nephew is a patrolman. That is just the simple truth. We don't get judged like LEO's and to me that is unfair.

Bottom line, this could have been avoided. Both parties had opportunities to deescalate the situation and they chose not to but instead somebody died and the father and son are being prosecuted, IMO unfairly but I'm not a juror.

Controversial topic with controversial answers. Don't start crap with an old man with a gun but I think orange dead guy was looking to get shot and his wish was granted.

Pretty sad but there is a lot of stupid in this world and this situation should encourage us all to keep packing, stay vigilant and always look for a better option. This didn't have to happen.
 
It was in the news article. "As tempers flare, Box steps in between her husband and John Miller. Howard’s brother has handed him a baseball bat by this time, but he never swung it, his wife said"

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article218728710.html#storylink=cpy

But apparently he did approach the shooter who warned him to not get closer than 3' from him (a bit to close I'd say) when he had the baseball bat. You can see the bat being thrown at the end of the video at the shooter and that's when the kid with the shotgun fires.
 
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Sigarett said:
...
As a CCW holder, I dodge confrontation anyway I can. The last thing I want to do is shoot or hurt someone unless they give me no choice and are threatening myself or family. Carrying a gun every single day has made me a more responsible adult. ...
Click to expand...
I very much agree with the above. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

You raise many other excellent points! There could be much about the situation that the video does not show - maybe the dead guy had threatened the 2 guys before, or was known by his neighbors to be violent/unstable, and many other possibilities. Thank you for your thought-provoking post!
 
Sigarett said:
I've not been super active on BF recently so I found it interesting this was posted here but I am all for it and Rob-Mob is an old school homie so I'm glad he brought this up. I've been following this story myself as I think it's important as a CCW holder to find perspective in other peoples misfortune and use it a learning opportunity and try to avoid these situations myself.

As a CCW holder, I dodge confrontation anyway I can. The last thing I want to do is shoot or hurt someone unless they give me no choice and are threatening myself of family. Carrying a gun every single day has made me a more responsible adult. That being said, there is background here that needs to be mentioned and maybe it has already but the dead guy has been arrested 280 times. Let that sink in...280 times.

The father and son duo probably carry a gun to the dumpster because they felt a need to. Maybe there was a prior event that gave cause to do so and even if there wasn't, I see no wrong in packing while taking the garbage out. The orange shirt (dead) guy was huge. Clearly, he was mentally unstable, his FB post he made himself he spoke of threatening the mailman with death if he delivered to his house again. In that same post he spoke of being on medications.

Why was the dude out walking the streets with a wrap sheet that thick?
Why didn't his wife deescalate the situation? (Because she wanted to see dead guy kick some rear)
Why didn't he just go inside if the guys had guns?
Lots of unanswered questions but I think most of us know why.

We could also say, why didn't the father and son go inside?
Why didn't they call the police?
The answer to these questions IMO is the police have been called before and the old man was tired of being harassed by the giant felon.

I see this a few of ways.
1. If someone twice your size and 30 years younger than you swings a bat at you, that is deadly force and you have the right to respond accordingly. After what I believe was a bat swing followed up by a double tap, he threw the bat at the old man and the son gave orange dead guy a shotgun blast to the head. Goodbye, bad guy!

2. If someone threatens your life and your son's life, how many times to do they have to say that before you take him seriously? Do you wait for him to kill one of you?

3. Would this even be a question if the father son duo had been police officers? No. Their guns would have been drawn and aimed at the orange dead guy the entire time and shots would have been fired prior to the old man's except they would have emptied a magazine into the guy. I'm not hating on cops, my brother is a police chief and my nephew is a patrolman. That is just the simple truth. We don't get judged like LEO's and to me that is unfair.

Bottom line, this could have been avoided. Both parties had opportunities to deescalate the situation and they chose not to but instead somebody died and the father and son are being prosecuted, IMO unfairly but I'm not a juror.

Controversial topic with controversial answers. Don't start crap with an old man with a gun but I think orange dead guy was looking to get shot and his wish was granted.

Pretty sad but there is a lot of stupid in this world and this situation should encourage us all to keep packing, stay vigilant and always look for a better option. This didn't have to happen.
Click to expand...

I agree that avoidance would have been the prudent thing to do on the part of any of the parties involved. I don't agree that the father/son duo are being unfairly prosecuted. It is incorrect to presume there had been previous altercations. There was no "history" between these neighbors, there had been no "prior event" between these parties (other than the passive/agressive mattress relocation shenanigans between the parties), the police had never been called before. The day of the shooting was the first time these folks met each other face-to-face according to this article: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article218728710.html
 
Sigarett said:
I've not been super active on BF recently so I found it interesting this was posted here but I am all for it and Rob-Mob is an old school homie so I'm glad he brought this up. I've been following this story myself as I think it's important as a CCW holder to find perspective in other peoples misfortune and use it a learning opportunity and try to avoid these situations myself.

As a CCW holder, I dodge confrontation anyway I can. The last thing I want to do is shoot or hurt someone unless they give me no choice and are threatening myself of family. Carrying a gun every single day has made me a more responsible adult. That being said, there is background here that needs to be mentioned and maybe it has already but the dead guy has been arrested 280 times. Let that sink in...280 times.

The father and son duo probably carry a gun to the dumpster because they felt a need to. Maybe there was a prior event that gave cause to do so and even if there wasn't, I see no wrong in packing while taking the garbage out. The orange shirt (dead) guy was huge. Clearly, he was mentally unstable, his FB post he made himself he spoke of threatening the mailman with death if he delivered to his house again. In that same post he spoke of being on medications.

Why was the dude out walking the streets with a wrap sheet that thick?
Why didn't his wife deescalate the situation? (Because she wanted to see dead guy kick some rear)
Why didn't he just go inside if the guys had guns?
Lots of unanswered questions but I think most of us know why.

We could also say, why didn't the father and son go inside?
Why didn't they call the police?
The answer to these questions IMO is the police have been called before and the old man was tired of being harassed by the giant felon.

I see this a few of ways.
1. If someone twice your size and 30 years younger than you swings a bat at you, that is deadly force and you have the right to respond accordingly. After what I believe was a bat swing followed up by a double tap, he threw the bat at the old man and the son gave orange dead guy a shotgun blast to the head. Goodbye, bad guy!

2. If someone threatens your life and your son's life, how many times to do they have to say that before you take him seriously? Do you wait for him to kill one of you?

3. Would this even be a question if the father son duo had been police officers? No. Their guns would have been drawn and aimed at the orange dead guy the entire time and shots would have been fired prior to the old man's except they would have emptied a magazine into the guy. I'm not hating on cops, my brother is a police chief and my nephew is a patrolman. That is just the simple truth. We don't get judged like LEO's and to me that is unfair.

Bottom line, this could have been avoided. Both parties had opportunities to deescalate the situation and they chose not to but instead somebody died and the father and son are being prosecuted, IMO unfairly but I'm not a juror.

Controversial topic with controversial answers. Don't start crap with an old man with a gun but I think orange dead guy was looking to get shot and his wish was granted.

Pretty sad but there is a lot of stupid in this world and this situation should encourage us all to keep packing, stay vigilant and always look for a better option. This didn't have to happen.
Click to expand...
Lots of good points in here that go along with my thoughts that often there is a backstory that can change the current narrative. Even if these men had never spoken before that does not mean that team skins did not know what kind of guy they were dealing with. Word gets around in a neighborhood. Either way though, once those guns were drawn they gave orange shirt reason to flee or defend himself (he chose the wrong option) which elevated the situation from an arguement to a life and death situation for all parties involved.
 
DrBuzzKill said:
I agree that avoidance would have been the prudent thing to do on the part of any of the parties involved. I don't agree that the father/son duo are being unfairly prosecuted. It is incorrect to presume there had been previous altercations. There was no "history" between these neighbors, there had been no "prior event" between these parties (other than the passive/agressive mattress relocation shenanigans between the parties), the police had never been called before. The day of the shooting was the first time these folks met each other face-to-face according to this article: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article218728710.html
Click to expand...
The article only gives one side of the story, that of the deceased guy’s wife; is she giving an accurate, full account of what happened – maybe/maybe not.
 
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