Off Topic Off Topic (Possibly Controversial)

[Goose 7279]

Honestly im in the minority here as well because i feel the bat and repeated verbal and physical confrontational physco behavior was in belief to be life threatning for the old man and son. Also the two were outnumbered significantly and physically overmatched ,neither one of the two with guns looked like they could fight their way out of a wet paper bag. But as said already they were all idiots and fatl mistakes were made.

 

[clampdaddy]

Honestly im in the minority here as well because i feel the bat and repeated verbal and physical confrontational physco behavior was in belief to be life threatning for the old man and son. Also the two were outnumbered significantly and physically overmatched ,neither one of the two with guns looked like they could fight their way out of a wet paper bag. But as said already they were all idiots and fatl mistakes were made.

I can definitely see that side of it too. I think this one is going to come down to which side brings the better lawyer.

 

[oktec60]

...It is incorrect to presume there had been previous altercations. There was no "history" between these neighbors, there had been no "prior event" between these parties (other than the passive/agressive mattress relocation shenanigans between the parties), the police had never been called before. The day of the shooting was the first time these folks met each other face-to-face according to this article: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article218728710.html

This may well have been the first time these two actually met but it is entirely possible the dead man had a reputation with other neighbors the shooter had heard about. And remember, it's the dead guy's wife that's talking to the media so we're only getting one side. Personally, if I had been the shooter, and I had a gun on me at the time I would have had it in my hand as well, or at least my hand on it. The guy in orange was entirely out of control posturing for a fight, he was balling up his fists, moving in and out of a fighting stance looking for an opening to take a swing. Even going way over the top with his threats. I suspect the only thing that kept him from going ahead and beating the crap out of the shooter at the time was the pistol the shooter was holding down at his side. Because as soon as he got his hands on a weapon that he thought he could strike first with, he tried, and lost. The altercation shouldn't of happened in the first place, but regardless of how it got started, to me the shooter was acting in self defense. I would imagine the DA will have a hard time trying to get a jury in Texas to convict the two shooters.

 

[tinfoil hat timmy]

As a valid multiple year firearm carry permit holder, I believe that EVERYONE has the right to go about their daily business without fear of bodily harm to themselves or their loved ones.

That being said, I believe that if anyone wants to endanger the safety of my family and or me, they've taken steps to ensure that I do whatever is necessary, and ONLY what is necessary to end that danger.

None of us were there, and none of us knows what was going through the brains of everyone involved. I'd be hard pressed to say that I could predict what I'd do in a similar situation. I'll say this however, my family is the most important aspect of my life, and I would gladly do anything necessary to stop harm from coming to them.

Just my .02

Peaceandlove

 

[Sigarett]

I agree that avoidance would have been the prudent thing to do on the part of any of the parties involved. I don't agree that the father/son duo are being unfairly prosecuted. It is incorrect to presume there had been previous altercations. There was no "history" between these neighbors, there had been no "prior event" between these parties (other than the passive/agressive mattress relocation shenanigans between the parties), the police had never been called before. The day of the shooting was the first time these folks met each other face-to-face according to this article: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article218728710.html

I'm not presuming anything. Giant Orange Dead Guy and drug addict wife moved to the neighborhood in April. How many times had he been arrested since then? You think neighbors didnt notice the flashing lights on a regular basis? I'm sure he was a fine man who was starting night school this week and had dreams of becoming a doctor and helping uninsured children (Sorry ).

Like what's been said already, we're getting the crack wife version of the story and its pretty obvious in the video she had no intention of stopping her husband from beating up the two guys, hell, Orange Dead Guy said he was going to kill them repeatedly....she said nothing to change that narrative, she was hoping to catch some ground and pound on video.

Watch the interviews with the wife. She's a tweaker or has Tourette's syndrome. I'm guessing the former. I hate being judgemental but when you flinch uncontrollably, you lose credibility in my book.

Lessons are this-
Don't bring a bat to a gunfight. Nor do you threaten the life of someone and their son if you're not prepared to lose your own.

You know the saying, I'm sure we all do.

Better to be judged by 12 jurors than carried by 6 pallbearers.

The guys who lived through this situation obviously followed that credo.

Team Skins-1
Giant Lunatic Dead Guy- 0

P.S.- I bought a Shockwave after I watched that video last week!!

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Personally, if I had been the shooter, and I had a gun on me at the time I would have had it in my hand as well, or at least my hand on it.

Having your hand on a holstered weapon in the context we see in the video can be defended as covering the weapon to protect against a potential grab/be ready to draw, but while still not actually threatening anyone with deadly force.

Drawing it - particularly the sloppy, finger on trigger crap we see here - is a whole different kettle of fish legally-speaking. As I said above, pistol-user threatened soon-to-be dead guy with deadly force the moment he drew the weapon. As far as the video shows, that threatened use of deadly force was unjustified; i.e., when he began brandishing his weapon, pistol-user had no reasonable fear of death/SBI from anyone. From that point on forward, pistol-user was the aggressor; soon-to-be dead guy not only had every right to threaten him with the bat, he had every right to beat him to death with the bat (sorry--swing the bat until the threat was stopped). The fact that pistol-user shot him dead upon being threatened with the bat makes pistol-user no different than an armed mugger being faster on the trigger than his concealed-carrying victim. Legally, having justified the use of deadly force against himself, Pistol-user's only defense was to retreat.

Practically, of course, soon-to-be dead guy was an idiot...the fact they shouldn't be shooting you doesn't do much to keep you alive.

 

[oktec60]

...Drawing it - particularly the sloppy, finger on trigger crap we see here - is a whole different kettle of fish legally-speaking...

The problem with that argument is the assumption that the shooter just started brandishing his weapon for no reason. Unfortunately, there is no video of what happened before the guns came out. But, we do have the wife's description of the argument getting heated prior to that point, and taking into account the big dead guys actions throughout the video, I'd say there was every probably it was more of the same and that was the reason the shooter drew his weapon. It is unreasonable, and not required, to expect a 67 year old small fat man to get in a fist fight with someone 30 years younger, much bigger, and obviously in better shape. In other words, if the big dead guy was acting that way prior to weapons being drawn, his actions were more than enough to consider him as the aggressor, and the one who was threatening deadly force justifying the shooter using his weapon. The wife's own words leads credence to that idea. I suspect what got the shooter in trouble was his warning telling the dead guy he would kill him if he got closer than three feet. He would have been much better off just saying he would shoot if he came closer, because the DA could argue some measure of premeditation. Either way, one guy is dead, and two others have really messed their lives up because of their botched efforts to deal with a hothead.

 

[tuica]

Several more great posts. Thanks. We all will hopefully be able to follow this story as it develops. But trial may be many moons down the road. My upcoming focus will be upon Judge Kavanaugh and his now multiple accusers.

 

[Sigarett]

WWG1WGA!

 

[Dr. Lecter]

The problem with that argument is the assumption that the shooter just started brandishing his weapon for no reason.

It's not an assumption, it's what is shown by the video. I certainly agree with you that an "unarmed" man can still present a reasonable threat of death/SBI that would justify deadly force...but so far as we know, pistol-user was not faced with any such threat before he began brandishing the weapon. Your speculation about why pistol-user may have been justified in drawing is not unreasonable, but it's also distinctly different from evidence.

Certainly, an absence of evidence does not prove the absence of such a threat. If he was threatened before drawing the weapon, I expect his lawyer/public defender will push that argument as far as they can (while remaining mindful of their duty to not suborn what they know to be a client's self-serving perjury).

 

[Rob_Mob]

Wow these are all some very well thought out points. I’m quite glad we ended up getting some more divergent views, especially as more new information becomes available. I am stunned at the number of arrests the deceased guy had — almost unbelievable.

I think as others have pointed out that this particular case will be referenced in many future deliberations (for better or worse).

 

[gk4ever2]

Wow these are all some very well thought out points. I’m quite glad we ended up getting some more divergent views, especially as more new information becomes available. I am stunned at the number of arrests the deceased guy had — almost unbelievable.

I think as others have pointed out that this particular case will be referenced in many future deliberations (for better or worse).

This has been a good thread; thank you for starting it! I'm guessing/hoping a lot more evidence will be uncovered, and hopefully there was at least one impartial witness who saw most or all of the encounter. If the father & son both have a clean record with no arrests or complaints filed against them, I would think that would help their case immensely, especially given the extensive criminal history of the deceased. Also, the father & son showed much more restraint than the dead guy; that along with the disparity of force others have mentioned (young big guy vs. two smaller guys) I think would be in their favor. IF there is any proof of their intent, this likely will be crucial in determining their fate in court.

 

[JohnTheTexican]

Maybe I'm not understanding the story right, but it seems that the Shirtless Guys with Guns were just being a-holes from the start. I don't get a sense of the time period over which it happened, but the story seems to be Big Guy put mattress in dumpster, one or both of the Shirtless Guys pull it out and throw it in his yard. Big Guy later puts mattress in the dumpster again and Big Guy or his wife tells one or both of the Shirtless Guys the trash won't get picked up if it's not in the dumpster. Shirtless guys again take it out and throw it in Big Guy's yard. Big guy must have put it in the dumpster again, because it's in the dumpster in the video. Now Shirtless Fat Man with a handgun stuffed in his shorts and Bozo Son with a shotgun come out, apparently so they can pull it out of the trash again and throw it in his yard. Big Guy turns into Big Angry Guy when Shirtless Fat Man pulls gun from his waistband and starts yelling at him. Shirtless Fat Man passively-aggressively taunts Big Angry Guy, who gets more and more worked up. Then for reasons not shown on, Shirtless Fat Man shoots Big Angry Guy twice, and for no apparent reason other than the shooting's started, Bozo Son chimes in with a shotgun blast.

That being somewhat the case, I think Shirtless Guys were doing enough provoking that if they feared Big Guy would use force against them, they had a duty to retreat, even with Texas's Stand Your Ground Law, and their failure to do so means their resort to deadly force was legally unjustified.

 

[UNRL Ghandi]

Lesson learned, you never bring a mattress to a gun fight unless you plan to take a dirt nap.

Seriously, I expect 100% of us here would never be found on either side of this situation. Complete foolishness from all parties involved regardless of any what ifs in the back story we don't know about.

 

[Jack of All Blades]

If he pulled out a forsaken mistress... oh man..



They'd all buddy up and go have a drink

Wish the world was like that.

 

[tuica]

UNRL... Knowing people, I would never bet 100% on any human behavioral response. But think you are damn close in your assessment.

 

[UNRL Ghandi]

UNRL... Knowing people, I would never bet 100% on any human behavioral response. But think you are damn close in your assessment.

Agreed, people are way too unpredictable. This is just the most civil online forum I've been on so I was giving everyone here the credit they deserve.

 

[tuica]

Good call, and yes - you are closer to that 100% here than many other forums. Now perhaps on the following forum - and only using this title for humor’s sake - please no one take offense (so sensitive nowadays - even me sometimes, which I’m trying to overcome) - that rate might be 37%.

“The Sideways Holding Handgun, 23 Year Old Male Tweaker, With Anger Issues Forum”

 

[j_d]

Dead guy wasnt acting like a victim, more like an aggressor until he started bleeding. That "papa bear" line in the article is ridiculous. Any bets that his toxicology report will show he was on something? No father should act like that, especially in front of his kids. That is probably the most stupid I have ever seen on video. I am not saying the shooters were right but I am predicting a not guilty verdict.

 

[clampdaddy]

Dead guy wasnt acting like a victim, more like an aggressor until he started bleeding. That "papa bear" line in the article is ridiculous. Any bets that his toxicology report will show he was on something? No father should act like that, especially in front of his kids. That is probably the most stupid I have ever seen on video. I am not saying the shooters were right but I am predicting a not guilty verdict.

I Finally got myself to actually watch the video and I would agree with your assessment on the "Papa bear instinct" comment. Papa bear instinct would have been to protect your family in the quickest manner possible whether it be fight or flight, not pacing around yelling threats. After seeing it I am even less sure of how the judgement will go. Yes they did pull guns which turned this situation into a possible life and death confrontation, but I'm pretty sure it was because they both knew that guy could destroy both of them without breaking a sweat. They did give him forewarning that they would use deadly force if he approached yet he still threatened to kill them and advanced on them.......But then again the old man repeatedly telling him "Taker yer swing" did not help their case. I honestly can't say which way this will go but I don't think it will be first degree murder, especially since they were let out on bail.