"Old Knives"

galvanic1882 · Mar 31, 2023

Thanks Charlie

Augie · Mar 31, 2023

waynorth said:
I guess you could use that knife for something, but it certainly is a faked knife, Mike. If it was sold as a real Case Bros, it was a scam!!
I don't see why you couldn't start a thread for faked or counterfeit knives. Maybe the mods don't want the responsibility (It can bring negative posts if it insults the Faker or Scammer, but who cares!!) I say go ahead!! Sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness than permission!! Personally I wish there had been such a thread earlier in my collecting. We've all gotten stung!!

Exactly Charlie, I wish I had a resource early on in my knife collecting days.

waynorth · Mar 31, 2023

W.Winsted vs Winsted!! In about 1878, Empire moved from West Winsted to Winsted, Conn, and grew to be one of the largest Cutleries in the USA!!! Hard to find, the small Ebony wood Jack below is marked W.Winsted!!! The knife is surely pre-1880!!!
You collectors have heard of Red Stag, White Stag, Amber Stag, Second Cut and even third Cut Stag!! But Empire produced what they called "Black Stag", probably treated with both PP and dye, as the second (worn) knife below displays!!!
The Empire story is not as popular as many others, like Schrade, Remington and Case, but I find it fascinating!!!

waynorth · Mar 31, 2023

Interesting fact, the official postal abbreviation for Connecticut was Ct. in1831, changed to Conn. in 1874, and back to Ct. in 1963!!!

danno50 · Mar 31, 2023

Very interesting bit of history, Charlie, thanks. Two great old knives as well.

herder · Mar 31, 2023

Wonderful knives posted here as always. And Charlie, those last two models are fantastic!!!

I hope Augie doesn't mind that I'm posting a picture of one of his fine Russell folders.
It will be featured along with some other knives in an article on Russell Navy knives.
That article will appear in the May issue of "Knife Magazine".

View attachment 2137007

waynorth · Mar 31, 2023

danno50 said:
Very interesting bit of history, Charlie, thanks. Two great old knives as well.

You are welcome, and thank you!!!

waynorth · Mar 31, 2023

herder said:
Wonderful knives posted here as always. And Charlie, those last two models are fantastic!!!

I hope Augie doesn't mind that I'm posting a picture of one of his fine Russell folders.
It will be featured along with some other knives in an article on Russell Navy knives.
That article will appear in the May issue of "Knife Magazine".

View attachment 2137007

I'm looking forward to the article!!! Nice to see the old Navy Rope knives made in the USA!!! Nice Russell!!!
Here are a couple of Sheffields!! At one time they dominated the field!!

herder · Mar 31, 2023

waynorth said:
I'm looking forward to the article!!! Nice to see the old Navy Rope knives made in the USA!!! Nice Russell!!!
Here are a couple of Sheffields!! At one time they dominated the field!!View attachment 2137039 View attachment 2137041

Oh Charlie, you've got my heart beating faster with those two!!!
The stag on both models is simply incredible.
Here are a couple more old English Navy models.

View attachment 2137059

Primble · Mar 31, 2023

galvanic1882 said:
I'd like to change the subject a minute. I brought up that I wish this site had a counterfeit forum or thread but have not heard back from a Mod that they are interested in doing it. There is one on AAPK and I'm thinking of starting one on FB because there are a lot of knives posted there that are not right. Here is one that was posted there that, in my opinion is not right. Should I shut my mouth and let it be?? Interested in any thoughts on this.

View attachment 2136495 View attachment 2136496 View attachment 2136497 View attachment 2136498

I generally won't comment on the originality of anyone's knife unless asked and or more likely asks me directly. I don't like hate mail.

I think your intentions are good, but, even the best laid plans can go astray. I want to give you some friendly food for thought.

There are some folks that don't care if a knife is original, different from most people collecting old knives that want a fine collection of original knives.
There are people that don't care so much about the history.
There are people that have different standards for obtaining an old knife and the longer most people collect, the more particular they get.
I bet you couldn't get an agreement right here in this thread of what constitutes a counterfeit knife.
To me a counterfeit knife is one that is presented as original and is not ....... or a copy catted old knife where the seller wants to make you think it is original. Deception, if you will.

In your example above, I would say it is not original, but, I wouldn't say it is counterfeited because I think everything about it is original except the blade ....... and I don't know the intent.
I would call your example a Frankenknife, a very poor attempt to replace a blade, but, I can see why they might have wanted to because if you look at the body of the knife, it's old and right handsome. I would guess the knife to previously be a fine old pruning knife. I wouldn't offer a dollar for it because I don't swap blades, but, somebody with skills to do it right might.

I have never tried to replace a blade on any of my knives, but, early on in my collecting, I sent an old knife off for a broken pen blade delete and a re-handle. I doubt I ever will again because I already have my collections near where I wanted them to be. I never intended to sell it and wouldn't sell it and never had any intent to deceive anyone .... I wanted it that way for me ..... and it turned out great. Now ....... after I kick the bucket .... if my son later decides to sell my old knives, he wouldn't know because it was a well done re-handle and he might present it as original, if somebody asked ..... but he would be going on his best judgement (because he does not collect old knives) and not be intending to deceive anyone.

I see others that looks in the catalogs and if the old knife is not in it, they get suspicious. Well ..... not all knives made the catalogs .... I can promise that. So I would say looking in catalogs proves a knife was made, but, catalogs do not prove it was not made.

Then ... you get into the territories of what is acceptable and what is not ? I know what is acceptable to me, but, what is acceptable to you or Duncan or Cal or Charlie or Lloyd or Rachel, etc.
Very likely different.

To give everybody a good example ..... say Michael has an old Cattaruagus knife laying around that is completely original and he acquired it early on in his collecting and the pen blade was broken or wore out. Years later, he runs across another of the exact same model and with a pristine pen blade, but, the bone has bad cracks or is missing ..... so he gets to thinking ..... you know I might be able to get Eric to swap those identical pen blades

.... he runs it by Eric, and he does it for him. Now he has the knife he always wanted .... (maybe couldn't find a better example) and it has a genuine Cattaraugus pen blade from the same model in it. So .... what is wrong with that ? The knife is no longer as original, but, now it is a good knife. Is that acceptable or not acceptable ? I surely would not call it counterfeited, especially if he did not describe it specifically as original at a point of sell. I would likely call it a repaired knife.

I would hate to see a counterfeited thread allowed anywhere in the traditional forums here, as it has earned a reputation for being mostly friendly and I would hate to see a rift get started. People might get really mad and leave or assign you sad emojis all the time.

I think the term counterfeited causes alarm. How about a thread that describes what to look for in non original knives, as an alternative ?

A thread that discusses, without using someone else's photos or someone else's knife, things to look for to avoid getting took. Like hammered pins and spun pins, the size of pins in the real old knives, do they match the tang stamp era, the whole look of the knife such as pocket worn bone and nearly pristine blades. Things like .. when did hammered pins start to disappear vs. spun pins, things that people with a good deal of experience still wonder about. When did pick bone start to disappear ? Which manufacturers tang stamped all blades vs. ones that just stamped the main ? Posts that address that some more modern companies re-produced some of the old knife companies knives legally and what to look for.

Things like seller does not accept returns vs. does accept returns. Does not accept sets off alarms in my head. Does accept means that if I closely look the knife over when I get it and think it is not original means I can send it back for refund, which comforts me. Feedback ...... look it over. Things you said, like the blade doesn't open right or stops at an odd angle when opened, visible bolster pins. Photos of a knife that don't show it fully opened concerns me. It might be wore out. Absence of any description of snap concerns me. ....... and so on.

I hope I didn't say anything to upset you, but, if I did .... I promise I was trying not to and that might tell you where a thread for counterfeit knives might go. For Facebook, it might or might not work out. ........... and you asked.

Now ... I'm tired of typing, thank goodness for all of you.

r8shell · Mar 31, 2023

Primble said:
Pocket worn and well loved by someone ....... never met a sharpening stone it didn't like.
I have had this old New York Knife Co. Serpentine Jack for going on ten years now. I have better knives, I confess.
There is something about this well worn one that keeps me grabbing it out of the corner cabinet and giving it some pocket time, every so often.
The pen blade is hardly worn at all, the main has lost some length and a lot of belly.
Still proudly snaps hard on the open and close and jumps like a rabbit to the half stops ..... takes an edge without much trouble. Still a good knife.
Please don't laugh at it, but, a sad emoji wouldn't upset her too much.

View attachment 2135812

View attachment 2135811

That looks better than new to me.

Campbellclanman said:
Nothing within the neighbourhood of previous Knives shown here, I picked up this Ivory Handled Budding / Gardeners Knife- the size impressed me, I saw that it had what looked to be re-bladed smaller pin through a larger pin on the finely threaded Bolsters.

The photo's look terrible and I will update then soon if I can because the grain on the Ivory is quite stunning.
Shown in comparison to a smaller and older Eye Witness Ivory Budding Knife, the larger as you see has an ivory Tongue for the tasks ahead rather than the inbuilt one of the TEW.
Sue is about to venture into a Horticulture course and the diagram of a recommended Knife was a Budding that sports the humped version of the Blade that we see often, Sue has chosen the larger one here to do the course with and I couldn't be happier in supplying her with a knife.

Interestingly enough the Sheepsfoots Blade they placed into the Knife is a nice one with a nice bit of Swage Work on it- I will sharpen this Blade up for Sue and she will be away with it!

The only shame is of course that with the original Blade gone, I will never know of the cutler firm who made it.

The fact it's Ivory being an older Knife does not worry me- I don't want this to turn into a discussion on the use of Ivory, its what they did in the earlier years, and of course if we were to decide if it be used today it would be a solid No Way, but we cannot change History so I appreciate the beauty of the material.

A terrible attempt with a I-Phone that has a broken camera to Take a photo of the ETW Blade

How wonderful that that old budding/grafting knife will get used again.

galvanic1882 · Mar 31, 2023

Primble said:
I generally won't comment on the originality of anyone's knife unless asked and or more likely asks me directly. I don't like hate mail.
I think your intentions are good, but, even the best laid plans can go astray. I want to give you some friendly food for thought.

There are some folks that don't care if a knife is original, different from most people collecting old knives that want a fine collection of original knives.
There are people that don't care so much about the history.
There are people that have different standards for obtaining an old knife and the longer most people collect, the more particular they get.
I bet you couldn't get an agreement right here in this thread of what constitutes a counterfeit knife.
To me a counterfeit knife is one that is presented as original and is not ....... or a copy catted old knife where the seller wants to make you think it is original. Deception, if you will.

In your example above, I would say it is not original, but, I wouldn't say it is counterfeited because I think everything about it is original except the blade ....... and I don't know the intent.
I would call your example a Frankenknife, a very poor attempt to replace a blade, but, I can see why they might have wanted to because if you look at the body of the knife, it's old and right handsome. I would guess the knife to previously be a fine old pruning knife. I wouldn't offer a dollar for it because I don't swap blades, but, somebody with skills to do it right might.

I have never tried to replace a blade on any of my knives, but, early on in my collecting, I sent an old knife off for a broken pen blade delete and a re-handle. I doubt I ever will again because I already have my collections near where I wanted them to be. I never intended to sell it and wouldn't sell it and never had any intent to deceive anyone .... I wanted it that way for me ..... and it turned out great. Now ....... after I kick the bucket .... if my son later decides to sell my old knives, he wouldn't know because it was a well done re-handle and he might present it as original, if somebody asked ..... but he would be going on his best judgement (because he does not collect old knives) and not be intending to deceive anyone.

I see others that looks in the catalogs and if the old knife is not in it, they get suspicious. Well ..... not all knives made the catalogs .... I can promise that. So I would say looking in catalogs proves a knife was made, but, catalogs do not prove it was not made.

Then ... you get into the territories of what is acceptable and what is not ? I know what is acceptable to me, but, what is acceptable to you or Duncan or Cal or Charlie or Lloyd or Rachel, etc.
Very likely different.

To give everybody a good example ..... say Michael has an old Cattaruagus knife laying around that is completely original and he acquired it early on in his collecting and the pen blade was broken or wore out. Years later, he runs across another of the exact same model and with a pristine pen blade, but, the bone has bad cracks or is missing ..... so he gets to thinking ..... you know I might be able to get Eric to swap those identical pen blades .... he runs it by Eric, and he does it for him. Now he has the knife he always wanted .... (maybe couldn't find a better example) and it has a genuine Cattaraugus pen blade from the same model in it. So .... what is wrong with that ? The knife is no longer as original, but, now it is a good knife. Is that acceptable or not acceptable ? I surely would not call it counterfeited, especially if he did not describe it specifically as original at a point of sell. I would likely call it a repaired knife.

I would hate to see a counterfeited thread allowed anywhere in the traditional forums here, as it has earned a reputation for being mostly friendly and I would hate to see a rift get started. People might get really mad and leave or assign you sad emojis all the time.

I think the term counterfeited causes alarm. How about a thread that describes what to look for in non original knives, as an alternative ?

A thread that discusses, without using someone else's photos or someone else's knife, things to look for to avoid getting took. Like hammered pins and spun pins, the size of pins in the real old knives, do they match the tang stamp era, the whole look of the knife such as pocket worn bone and nearly pristine blades. Things like .. when did hammered pins start to disappear vs. spun pins, things that people with a good deal of experience still wonder about. When did pick bone start to disappear ? Which manufacturers tang stamped all blades vs. ones that just stamped the main ? Posts that address that some more modern companies re-produced some of the old knife companies knives legally and what to look for.

Things like seller does not accept returns vs. does accept returns. Does not accept sets off alarms in my head. Does accept means that if I closely look the knife over when I get it and think it is not original means I can send it back for refund, which comforts me. Feedback ...... look it over. Things you said, like the blade doesn't open right or stops at an odd angle when opened, visible bolster pins. Photos of a knife that don't show it fully opened concerns me. It might be wore out. Absence of any description of snap concerns me. ....... and so on.

I hope I didn't say anything to upset you, but, if I did .... I promise I was trying not to and that might tell you where a thread for counterfeit knives might go. For Facebook, it might or might not work out. ........... and you asked.

Now ... I'm tired of typing, thank goodness for all of you.

You brought up some good points thanks

Campbellclanman · Mar 31, 2023

I agree with everyone Mike, start that Thread matey.
Beautiful Baldwin Jack with all the features one could want on a Knife my friend! Just a great piece!

I do think that Knife doesn't look right Mike, I am no expert and certainly know less on Case Knives. The seller you mentioned in other discussions I have bought a few Knives off, and I wont be again.
I just could not do that to another person when it actually hurt my trust in some people after being burnt, money doesn't mean that much to me to hurt or deceive them, I agree also with my Traditional friends here where I am careful to comment on a knife these days if it looks not right- in the past only out of concern I have pointed out a knife or so when it did not look right- but the more I have learned these days makes me realise that I have a LOT more to learn, and I dont mind admitting that.

Charlie- That Empire - ok well BOTH of those Empires are awesome, I dont see why people wouldnt be as interested in Empire than any other? Your influence has been just that - massive influence along with education to help us see what we are looking at - when I se an Empire? -I tend to sit up a bit!

I used to own a few Englush Bowies that had Black Stag on them - LOVE IT!!

Herder, Augies Knife is beautiful!, and then Charlie comes in with some outstanding ones - everytime I see them I just cat get enough of these old English beasts, I must take some Photos tomorrow and post some of mine up! I have the brothers to your examples you have shared with us above!

As Charlie said I cant wait to see that Article my friend!

waynorth · Mar 31, 2023

Primble said:
I generally won't comment on the originality of anyone's knife unless asked and or more likely asks me directly. I don't like hate mail.
I think your intentions are good, but, even the best laid plans can go astray. I want to give you some friendly food for thought.

There are some folks that don't care if a knife is original, different from most people collecting old knives that want a fine collection of original knives.
There are people that don't care so much about the history.
There are people that have different standards for obtaining an old knife and the longer most people collect, the more particular they get.
I bet you couldn't get an agreement right here in this thread of what constitutes a counterfeit knife.
To me a counterfeit knife is one that is presented as original and is not ....... or a copy catted old knife where the seller wants to make you think it is original. Deception, if you will.

In your example above, I would say it is not original, but, I wouldn't say it is counterfeited because I think everything about it is original except the blade ....... and I don't know the intent.
I would call your example a Frankenknife, a very poor attempt to replace a blade, but, I can see why they might have wanted to because if you look at the body of the knife, it's old and right handsome. I would guess the knife to previously be a fine old pruning knife. I wouldn't offer a dollar for it because I don't swap blades, but, somebody with skills to do it right might.

I have never tried to replace a blade on any of my knives, but, early on in my collecting, I sent an old knife off for a broken pen blade delete and a re-handle. I doubt I ever will again because I already have my collections near where I wanted them to be. I never intended to sell it and wouldn't sell it and never had any intent to deceive anyone .... I wanted it that way for me ..... and it turned out great. Now ....... after I kick the bucket .... if my son later decides to sell my old knives, he wouldn't know because it was a well done re-handle and he might present it as original, if somebody asked ..... but he would be going on his best judgement (because he does not collect old knives) and not be intending to deceive anyone.

I see others that looks in the catalogs and if the old knife is not in it, they get suspicious. Well ..... not all knives made the catalogs .... I can promise that. So I would say looking in catalogs proves a knife was made, but, catalogs do not prove it was not made.

Then ... you get into the territories of what is acceptable and what is not ? I know what is acceptable to me, but, what is acceptable to you or Duncan or Cal or Charlie or Lloyd or Rachel, etc.
Very likely different.

To give everybody a good example ..... say Michael has an old Cattaruagus knife laying around that is completely original and he acquired it early on in his collecting and the pen blade was broken or wore out. Years later, he runs across another of the exact same model and with a pristine pen blade, but, the bone has bad cracks or is missing ..... so he gets to thinking ..... you know I might be able to get Eric to swap those identical pen blades .... he runs it by Eric, and he does it for him. Now he has the knife he always wanted .... (maybe couldn't find a better example) and it has a genuine Cattaraugus pen blade from the same model in it. So .... what is wrong with that ? The knife is no longer as original, but, now it is a good knife. Is that acceptable or not acceptable ? I surely would not call it counterfeited, especially if he did not describe it specifically as original at a point of sell. I would likely call it a repaired knife.

I would hate to see a counterfeited thread allowed anywhere in the traditional forums here, as it has earned a reputation for being mostly friendly and I would hate to see a rift get started. People might get really mad and leave or assign you sad emojis all the time.

I think the term counterfeited causes alarm. How about a thread that describes what to look for in non original knives, as an alternative ?

A thread that discusses, without using someone else's photos or someone else's knife, things to look for to avoid getting took. Like hammered pins and spun pins, the size of pins in the real old knives, do they match the tang stamp era, the whole look of the knife such as pocket worn bone and nearly pristine blades. Things like .. when did hammered pins start to disappear vs. spun pins, things that people with a good deal of experience still wonder about. When did pick bone start to disappear ? Which manufacturers tang stamped all blades vs. ones that just stamped the main ? Posts that address that some more modern companies re-produced some of the old knife companies knives legally and what to look for.

Things like seller does not accept returns vs. does accept returns. Does not accept sets off alarms in my head. Does accept means that if I closely look the knife over when I get it and think it is not original means I can send it back for refund, which comforts me. Feedback ...... look it over. Things you said, like the blade doesn't open right or stops at an odd angle when opened, visible bolster pins. Photos of a knife that don't show it fully opened concerns me. It might be wore out. Absence of any description of snap concerns me. ....... and so on.

I hope I didn't say anything to upset you, but, if I did .... I promise I was trying not to and that might tell you where a thread for counterfeit knives might go. For Facebook, it might or might not work out. ........... and you asked.

Now ... I'm tired of typing, thank goodness for all of you.

Great treatise of the subject, Rob!! You are right, such a thread can easily go astray, and might easily be misunderstood!! Maybe it's too much to ask of our Mods to look after such a thing!!
I like your more general approach!! :thumbsup:

rockman0 · Mar 31, 2023

galvanic1882 said:
I'd like to change the subject a minute. I brought up that I wish this site had a counterfeit forum or thread but have not heard back from a Mod that they are interested in doing it. There is one on AAPK and I'm thinking of starting one on FB because there are a lot of knives posted there that are not right. Here is one that was posted there that, in my opinion is not right. Should I shut my mouth and let it be?? Interested in any thoughts on this.

Ok this one is not on ebay but maybe it was bought off ebay, I don't know for sure. It was posted on another site as legit. What are your thoughts, I think it's new blade in an old frame and not genuine.

I sent this message to the guy that runs the group on FB:

Hey John, I did not want to post this in the group because the last time I posted something about a knife not being a vintage knife it was not received well by the owner, it was the Shapleigh eureka which is clearly a fake! The Case Gowanda knife is also very suspect, stamp looks fake and the blade looks new and the frame beat up and used also been buffed. The blade does not set right when open and the pivot pin has been replaced. Look at the scratches they don’t line up. I’m thinking of starting a counterfeit group to help teach people what is right and what is not, thoughts?
View attachment 2136495 View attachment 2136496 View attachment 2136497 View attachment 2136498

Good idea for a thread :thumbsup:

Valid points made, everyone :thumbsup:

waynorth said:
W.Winsted vs Winsted!! In about 1878, Empire moved from West Winsted to Winsted, Conn, and grew to be one of the largest Cutleries in the USA!!! Hard to find, the small Ebony wood Jack below is marked W.Winsted!!! The knife is surely pre-1880!!!
You collectors have heard of Red Stag, White Stag, Amber Stag, Second Cut and even third Cut Stag!! But Empire produced what they called "Black Stag", probably treated with both PP and dye, as the second (worn) knife below displays!!!
The Empire story is not as popular as many others, like Schrade, Remington and Case, but I find it fascinating!!!
View attachment 2136959 View attachment 2136960 View attachment 2136961

Beautiful black Stag

, Charlie. Sheffieldish, if that's a word :thumbsup:

waynorth · Mar 31, 2023

rockman0 said:
Good idea for a thread Valid points made, everyone

Beautiful black Stag, Charlie. Sheffieldish, if that's a word

Sheffieldish - certainly applies to the Fit, if not the color?!!

Augie · Apr 1, 2023

herder said:
Wonderful knives posted here as always. And Charlie, those last two models are fantastic!!!

I hope Augie doesn't mind that I'm posting a picture of one of his fine Russell folders.
It will be featured along with some other knives in an article on Russell Navy knives.
That article will appear in the May issue of "Knife Magazine".

View attachment 2137007

Don't mind at all Herder, glad you could use it and thank you for letting us know what issue the article is in.

Here it is with a Sheffield example, love the stag on these knives.

black mamba · Apr 1, 2023

Charlie, that Hunter has the "poppin'est" popcorn stag I've ever seen, just magnificent!

And on Black Stag, the last of the GEC #53 Cuban Stockmen I acquired to complete my collection was a 1 of 2 in Black Stag. I don't recall seeing GEC use it in any other knife (maybe Darren could correct me on that).

Arathol · Apr 1, 2023

galvanic1882 said:
I'd like to change the subject a minute. I brought up that I wish this site had a counterfeit forum or thread but have not heard back from a Mod that they are interested in doing it. There is one on AAPK and I'm thinking of starting one on FB because there are a lot of knives posted there that are not right. Here is one that was posted there that, in my opinion is not right. Should I shut my mouth and let it be?? Interested in any thoughts on this.

There is a difference between a proper repair using correct parts and outright counterfeit intended to deceive.
If you look in Levines forum there are plenty of threads on counterfeits, including a certain ebay seller that would weld Chinese blades onto the tangs of used up vintage knives...

waynorth · Apr 1, 2023

Arathol said:
There is a difference between a proper repair using correct parts and outright counterfeit intended to deceive.
If you look in Levines forum there are plenty of threads on counterfeits, including a certain ebay seller that would weld Chinese blades onto the tangs of used up vintage knives...

I think I remember that guy - he passed away!!!