On Ricasso design..

I love to see knife maker's hands, I assume those are Stuarts. His hands look like mine, I see a band-aid and a couple of cuts, a whole bunch of stuff that's never coming off, callouses and roughness. In this thread we're talking about cuts to the hand, it's kind of an everyday occurrence to a knife maker. Just had to laugh.:D:D
 
Ha Ha.. yes that's my hand. I never cut myself using a knife when it's done but I think I have about 2-3 cuts on each hand from making them. :p
 
SBranson said:
Thanks David. I as mentioned I sent you those as I thought the photo in the original post wasn't really the best example of this style properly executed. It seemed to lead to the perception that this style is more dangerous than it is.
I think these pics of a later and better iteration of Ed's style are a better representation from me.:o:)

Just wanted to say that as the knife in the first photo was feeling more and more like a mistake. :p
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Stuart I sure don't want you to feel that I was picking on you or being critical of your knife.

I think the knife is fine - even better than fine - it's the technique I find less than ideal.

Lorien - I guess you are not capable of this amazing feat of dexterity:

orig.jpg


Notice my middle finger is still firmly behind the guard, both fingers are still connected to my hand (a revelation, I know) yet my index finger has strayed far enough from my middle finger to sustain perhaps irreparable nerve and tendon damage. Ouch.

If you move your hand outside the protection of the guard, it isn't protecting that part any more. Your skill and experience may be adequate protectors, but that guard isn't doing what it was designed to do any more.

Roger
 
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Roger, I could see one's finger slipping forward if one were daft enough to use this grip to go and stab something, but for drawing a knife through a cut it absolutely increases one's dexterity especially toward the tip.

It's the context of the knife, I think, which makes a design feature like this useful or useless. If a knife is designed mindfully with this feature, then the guard will provide protection for your digits, even if one of them is between the guard and the edge.
 
RogerP said:
That seems a vaulting stretch to me. I don't think it reasonable to say one's fingers are "locked" in place with one or more beyond the guard. it's kind of why I suspect Stuart said he wouldn't use that grip on a thrusting cut - it's pretty obvious the risk of the finger sliding fractionally forward and getting cut real bad are really high.

Roger
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I don't think there's a high risk at all, if anything it's unlikely. Considering several "users" have stated they use that hold and have not injured themselves speaks to that. Yes, it is possible to move your finger forward over the edge of the blade but if you have a grip on the handle and the finger curled over the guard or around the ricasso the weak muscles that perform that action would have to counteract the much stronger muscles providing your grip strength. I agree with Lorien that it provides a hold similar to a sub-hilt without getting in the way of certain holds the way that style can. Design wise it's definitely up to the maker and buyer what they prefer, but IMO, there's no denying the benefits it affords.

Edited to add:

Roger "If you move your hand outside the protection of the guard, it isn't protecting that part any more. Your skill and experience may be adequate protectors, but that guard isn't doing what it was designed to do any more."

The guard is still doing what it was designed to do and so is the extended rounded ricasso.
 
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Lorien said:
Roger, I could see one's finger slipping forward if one were daft enough to use this grip to go and stab something, but for drawing a knife through a cut it absolutely increases one's dexterity especially toward the tip.

It's the context of the knife, I think, which makes a design feature like this useful or useless. If a knife is designed mindfully with this feature, then the guard will provide protection for your digits, even if one of them is between the guard and the edge.
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Well Lorien my point all along was that this grip was at most risk when if the point were to be unexpectedly stuck in a bone or suchlike, with the blade moving forward.

Stuart indicated that he wouldn't use this grip in a thursting type cut for obvious reasons.

Why you feel the need to label this "daft" in order to cling to your claim that it presents no risk is for you to figure out - I'm not interested.

I didn't see you disputing the suggestion that with your fingers connected to your hand and one finger behind the guard, that the exposed finger would be held secure by those behind the guard. I'm not buying that proposition at all and hence used a photo to demonstrate what SHOULD be obvious - that your fingers can separate - and they would only need to do so a very little bit for damage to result.

Your claim that a "mindful" design of the guard will somehow eliminate this concern stretches credultiy.

Roger
 
Bill Burke said:
well said Lorien, I just came in from field dressing an Elk that My Father in law shot this morning. The movements that I use are pretty much automatic but I did pay more attention to the grips I was using and the type of cut i was making. The first grip was a straight forward all fingers behind the guard while legging and removing a strip of hide from the underside in preparation for gutting. in all these cases I was pushing the blade away from me. The second grip was pinching the blade at the ricasso between thumb and forefinger and remaining fingers behind the guard. With this grip I was making light draw cuts separating skin from tissue. The next grip was a firm grip on the handle with my middle through pinky fingers with the blade between my thumb and index finger and the end of my fingers below the blade. I used this grip to open the body cavity and let the intestines out. This is a cut pushing the blade awayfrom me and one that probably only someone that has worked butchering proffessionaly will use but it works very well. the forefinger and thumb slide under the tissue while the blademakes the cut on the outside. makes the possibility of slicing an intestine verylow but a difficult
cut to master. The next grip is the one with middle finger in front of the guard and the index finger along the spine inside the body cavity up to my biceps cutting loose the diaphram and sinew holding the offal to the inside of the body cavity. Next back to a conventional grip edge up to split the hide and
remove the windpipe and esophagus. back to the pinch grip for separating the tissue and removing the windpipe etc. Now a grip with index finger on the spine to remove ths skin wrap up the meat in game bags and hang in the cooler. the whole thing
took about an hour maybee an hour and a half.
sorry for the long post just thought some might find it interesting.
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Thanks Bill,
I appreciate reading your detailed account. How do you normally clean up a knife after a big job like this?
David
 
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well, it's just conversation after all:)

For the record, when I said stab something I meant with intent to do so and with commensurate force. Accidents do happen but being reckless has consequences. Even whilst wearing a seatbelt, people die in car accidents.

I'm not trying to argue with you, Roger, only to point out that a knife designed with a finger hold between a guard and the edge makes sense to me. That a grip which incorporates this is relevant especially when dexterity and being able to index the edge accurately is important, and that it can be safe because a guard is present.

That is all:)
 
David I just rinse the blood off in the first water source that I come to and then wipe it dry. the tallow dosent rinse of and has to be forcebly wiped away but that just helps preserve the blade from rust and stains. thanks for reading that long winded post

2knife said:
Thanks Bill,
I appreciate reading your detailed account. How do you normally clean up a knife after a big job like this?
David
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Bill,
That was a great longwinded post! :)

Here are a few photos of a small knife. Ricasso isnt as long, still works comfortably. Knife is drawfed by my hand. Even gripping down at ricasso, and moving my finger around i have no danger to cut myself. i have to work for the slightest pinch.

ccb04ac3.jpg

603afef6.jpg

40c016dd.jpg

98694af5.jpg

0c742535.jpg

David
 
2knife said:
Here are a few photos of a small knife. Ricasso isnt as long, still works comfortably. Knife is drawfed by my hand. Even gripping down at ricasso, and moving my finger around i have no danger to cut myself. i have to work for the slightest pinch.

ccb04ac3.jpg
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That's impressive David, considering you are a whisker away from cutting yourself without moving the knife or applying any force to the blade whatsoever. You are a skilled cutter indeed!

It's hard to say from the photo, but that unsharpened portion of the blade doesn't look to be any more than about 1/8" in length - is that close? Am I also correct in guessing that your finger is already using up most or all of this safety / warning area as shown in the photo?

Roger
 
Lorien said:
Accidents do happen but being reckless has consequences.
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Funny, I thought the guard was there precisely because accidents DO happen. Even the eminently experienced and magnificently skilled are not perfect are not perfect. And human nature being what it is, a great many people in a great many endeavors are not quite so wonderfully skilled as they imagine themselves to be. And one need neither be daft nor reckless to make a simple mistake.

Obviously, with care, skill and unfailing attention to the task, one could dress out a deer with just about any sharpened piece of metal.

It's not a question of the presence or absence of risk as some would have it, but a question of the degree of risk. I maintain that there is less risk in keeping your hand on the handle, and especially keeping your fingers away from the uderside of the blade immediately adjacent to the cutting edge(manipulating the spine troubles me less). Some maintain that there is NO RISK of cutting yourself in doing so - I don't accept that for a minute.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
Some maintain that there is NO RISK of cutting yourself in doing so - I don't accept that for a minute.
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As I said previously, I had used a guarded knife in precisely the hold all are advocating with the exact specs(guard, long ricasso) and got a nice cut on my right index finger when the knife slipped off of the acorn squash I was attempting to cut.

Obviously, this hold does not work for me, nor would I attempt it again on a push cut.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Steven,
Can you post a photo of this guarded knife you used?
I would like to see it.. and what might have caused the accident.

Roger,
here is a gripping photo.
d920eee8.jpg

As you'll note, yes my finger is near the sharpened area, and might look a whisker away from being cut, but since the focus of pressure of my finger rests against the bulk of the guard there is still not sufficient area that would cause the edge to dig in and cut. As i said, really bearing down.. This is just an extreme example-
With that said, i would always attempt common sense.. I
sliced through the top of my thumb once, using a utilty knife- cutting the bottom of my shoe sole to make them even, old pair of shoes. I should have just bought a new pair of shoes first! Safety is good. No one is advocating a dangerous knife grip, if it is dangerous to you dont use it. I trust this style of knife and ricasso have been through nearly every environment and testing conditions capable of any knife. I have heard it has been carried in the Gulf wars, and seen action. One of Bill's knives was used to saw its way out of a overturned tractor trailer.

I would ask Bill or Ed, what instances or procedures performed using the choked up grip are unsafe? I recall in one past article Ed says the most
dangerous knife grip is stabbing down - knife turned upside down in the hand.
David
 
Kohai999 said:
As I said previously, I had used a guarded knife in precisely the hold all are advocating with the exact specs(guard, long ricasso) and got a nice cut on my right index finger when the knife slipped off of the acorn squash I was attempting to cut.

Obviously, this hold does not work for me, nor would I attempt it again on a push cut.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Yeah, but you're a daft reckless bastid anyway. :p

Roger
 
RogerP said:
And one need neither be daft nor reckless to make a simple mistake.
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you're right, Roger, and I should have been more clear that using the grip we're discussing in order to stab at something on purpose would be daft, not what you are referring to, vis a vis making a mistake. Sometimes words just don't come out exactly right.

It appears that I've offended you, so please accept my apology.
 
Here is one event: Years ago a client intending on going on a summer canoe trip in Canada wanted a working knife without a guard. I declined, he persisted, finally I told him I would make one with a guard and he could use it, if he did not like the guard I would grind it off for him and make a new scabbard.

He took the knife and during their trip the canoe got caught in a strain almost spilling them, an anchor line got caught in the strain and they were in serious trouble, he took my knife and reaching down in cold muddy water kept stabbing frantically to cut the line that was hung up in the strain. He got the line cut and they proceeded downstream, at first was unhappy about the bruise the guard left on his index finger.

Then he got to thinking about it and was than full that the guard kept his hand from sliding up the blade, ordered similar knives for his companions.

I remember hearing about a stabbing contest at a knife show where folks were going to test their knives stabbing a 55 gallon steel drum. They called the contest off when the second man using a guard-less knife went to the hospital for stitches.

I would not be afraid to stab with one of my knives with one finger on the ricasso ahead of the guard, either my index finger on the ricasso for a straight jab or little finger on it for a downward stab.

The worst damage you could predict would be a bruise if the blade penetrated fully and your finger got caught between the guard and the item stabbed.
 
Ed Fowler said:
I remember hearing about a stabbing contest at a knife show where folks were going to test their knives stabbing a 55 gallon steel drum. They called the contest off when the second man using a guard-less knife went to the hospital for stitches.
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I heard it was a Cold Steel Tanto(which does have somewhat of a guard) at a Soldier of Fortune show, and the target was an automobile tire. This story was related to me in 1994.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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