On Ricasso design..

[2knife]

One of Ed's "bird and trout" ricasso's

 

[2knife]

And, here a full shot, Pronghorn:

 

[Ben B]

One side aspect of this discussion that I think is interesting is that most of us don't hesitate to hold a paring knife with our fingers all over the blade and *gasp* cutting toward our thumb. Or a pinch grip on a chef's knife. Obviously no guards on either.

Why such different thinking with outdoor knives?

 

[RogerP]

One side aspect of this discussion that I think is interesting is that most of us don't hesitate to hold a paring knife with our fingers all over the blade and *gasp* cutting toward our thumb. Or a pinch grip on a chef's knife. Obviously no guards on either.

Why such different thinking with outdoor knives?

Or why a guard on a hunting knife at all if the best way to use it is to bypass the guard alltogether?

Roger

 

[RogerP]

Here I some hunters I really like:

Dan Farr:

Russ Andrews:

John White:

Bill Burke:

Lin Rhea:

Burt Foster:

Karl Andersen:

Jerry Fisk:

Dave Kelly:

Kyle Royer:

Roger

 

[Ben B]

Or why a guard on a hunting knife at all if the best way to use it is to bypass the guard alltogether?

Roger

Sorry if it wasn't clear. I wasn't advocating guard or guardless design. It was more a comment on how we hold knives and the apparent concern in this thread about having a finger in front of a guard.

 

[RogerP]

Sorry if it wasn't clear. I wasn't advocating guard or guardless design. It was more a comment on how we hold knives and the apparent concern in this thread about having a finger in front of a guard.

Yep - I got that - mine was a follow-up comment to yours - I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I certainly prefer a guard on a hunting knife, but I've seen a guy zip through a deer quite efficiently with a 3 in. blade 3-finger guardless knife. It wouldn't be my choice, but as has been mentioned, different strokes.

Roger

PS - Is that a Mick Langley hunter in your avatar?

 

[2knife]

Or why a guard on a hunting knife at all if the best way to use it is to bypass the guard alltogether?

Roger

Roger,
Great photos!
i wouldnt say the arguement is to "bypass" the guard. I think the response of those who are eminently experienced indicates this ricasso style allows for control AND saftey. It (guard) never serves as a "vestigial" appendage. But a necessary support mechanism.
David

 

[Ben B]

PS - Is that a Mick Langley hunter in your avatar?

It's one of Shawn McIntyre's MS test knives. I can't remember if it was the only hunter he presented. I should change my avatar since it is now in a new owner's hands.

 

[RogerP]

Roger,
Great photos!
i wouldnt say the arguement is to "bypass" the guard. I think the response of those who are eminently experienced indicates this ricasso style allows for control AND saftey. It (guard) never serves as a "vestigial" appendage. But a necessary support mechanism.
David

Hi David

I don't think that there is an argument, really - merely those who have expressed a preference for design and methodology. I said at the outset that this ricasso design is preferred by some, but not by me (in functional terms - I like the look just fine). That remains the case.

I do think it obvious that the guard has been bypassed - partially or totally - in the two blade grips shown - though proponents of same maintain that the knife can and has been safely used that way for them.

I don't know what the term "vestigial appendage" means in this context - it's not an expression I have used to describe the guard.

I do feel that in a well-designed hunting knife, control and safety can be achieved with your hand on the handle.

I do know that I have read more times than I can count - and experienced for myself - the importance of the guard in protecting the hand from the blade. We're talking hunting knives here - not fighters - so we can leave out of the discussion any fanciful notions of the guard serving to catch your opponent's blade. If you accept that protecting your hand from the blade is the function of the guard (or at least a function of the guard) then simple logic dictates the conclusion that if you have moved your hand past the guard and onto the blade, the guard is no longer offering that protection. The user's skill, dexterity and experience may well serve to provide safe use, but the guard is no longer playing that role.

It's kind of like taking off a safety belt. I mean, you can drive a car perfectly well without one. And someone could legitimately say "I have driven a car this way for 20 years and never had a problem." It's not a perfect analogy, I admit - but I hope it serves to help you understand my point even if you do not agree with it.

Roger

 

[george tichbourne]

Guard or no guard?

Well experienced hunters take a great deal of pride in being able to handle an unguarded knife and actually prefer them. Why, I don't know but that is the way it is so when making knives for the hunter I cater to them but all the while I know that less experienced hunters and knife collectors will definitely NOT like them.

Different strokes for different folks.

George

 

[Lorien]

I think that a guard by definition, is a protective device which protects one's hand from slipping on to the edge, (in the context of a hunting knife, as you say a fighter design is a different beast and may incorporate a protective element vis a vis another's edge).

Whether one's hand remains 100% behind the guard or 50% behind the guard doesn't change the fact that the guard is a protective device which keeps one's fingers from sliding forward on to the blade's edge.

Some might use this protective device to increase or decrease their leverage on the edge, by moving the handle toward the top or bottom of their hand, gripping it in a manner which ensures the knife remains locked within their grip.

For those who use a guard as a way to increase or decrease their leverage by moving the knife up and down through their hand as the task demands, a fingerwidth platform in front of the guard can increase their options as to how they hold the knife. The guard allows one to lock his fingers, like a subhilt, on either side of the guard.

 

[RogerP]

I think that a guard by definition, is a protective device which protects one's hand from slipping on to the edge, (in the context of a hunting knife, as you say a fighter design is a different beast and may incorporate a protective element vis a vis another's edge).

Just so we're clear, I think the notion of a fighter guard catching an opponent's blade is undiluted nonsense. But it has no application here in any event.

Whether one's hand remains 100% behind the guard or 50% behind the guard doesn't change the fact that the guard is a protective device which keeps one's fingers from sliding forward on to the blade's edge.

Well, it's still a protective device, but it's not being used as such. An unbuckled seatbelt doesn't change the fact that it's a protective device - it's just not providing any protection. If your hand is beyond the guard on the blade, the guard is no longer protecting your hand from the blade.

Some might use this protective device to increase or decrease their leverage on the edge, by moving the handle toward the top or bottom of their hand, gripping it in a manner which ensures the knife remains locked within their grip.

Yep - they may be using it for leverage, but it's not providing protection.

For those who use a guard as a way to increase or decrease their leverage by moving the knife up and down through their hand as the task demands, a fingerwidth platform in front of the guard can increase their options as to how they hold the knife. The guard allows one to lock his fingers, like a subhilt, on either side of the guard.

That seems a vaulting stretch to me. I don't think it reasonable to say one's fingers are "locked" in place with one or more beyond the guard. it's kind of why I suspect Stuart said he wouldn't use that grip on a thrusting cut - it's pretty obvious the risk of the finger sliding fractionally forward and getting cut real bad are really high.

Tell me Lorien - do you really think that the grip displayed in the first photo is every bit as safe as one where all fingers are behind the guard in all applications? If so, we just see it differently.

Roger

 

[Bill Burke]

well said Lorien, I just came in from field dressing an Elk that My Father in law shot this morning. The movements that I use are pretty much automatic but I did pay more attention to the grips I was using and the type of cut i was making. The first grip was a straight forward all fingers behind the guard while legging and removing a strip of hide from the underside in preparation for gutting. in all these cases I was pushing the blade away from me. The second grip was pinching the blade at the ricasso between thumb and forefinger and remaining fingers behind the guard. With this grip I was making light draw cuts separating skin from tissue. The next grip was a firm grip on the handle with my middle through pinky fingers with the blade between my thumb and index finger and the end of my fingers below the blade. I used this grip to open the body cavity and let the intestines out. This is a cut pushing the blade awayfrom me and one that probably only someone that has worked butchering proffessionaly will use but it works very well. the forefinger and thumb slide under the tissue while the blademakes the cut on the outside. makes the possibility of slicing an intestine verylow but a difficult cut to master. The next grip is the one with middle finger in front of the guard and the index finger along the spine inside the body cavity up to my biceps cutting loose the diaphram and sinew holding the offal to the inside of the body cavity. Next back to a conventional grip edge up to split the hide and remove the windpipe and esophagus. back to the pinch grip for separating the tissue and removing the windpipe etc. Now a grip with index finger on the spine to remove ths skin wrap up the meat in game bags and hang in the cooler. the whole thing took about an hour maybee an hour and a half.
sorry for the long post just thought some might find it interesting.

I think that a guard by definition, is a protective device which protects one's hand from slipping on to the edge, (in the context of a hunting knife, as you say a fighter design is a different beast and may incorporate a protective element vis a vis another's edge).

Whether one's hand remains 100% behind the guard or 50% behind the guard doesn't change the fact that the guard is a protective device which keeps one's fingers from sliding forward on to the blade's edge.

Some might use this protective device to increase or decrease their leverage on the edge, by moving the handle toward the top or bottom of their hand, gripping it in a manner which ensures the knife remains locked within their grip.

For those who use a guard as a way to increase or decrease their leverage by moving the knife up and down through their hand as the task demands, a fingerwidth platform in front of the guard can increase their options as to how they hold the knife. The guard allows one to lock his fingers, like a subhilt, on either side of the guard.

 

[teacher]

To me it is all about the particular knife and particular user. In other words.... personal preference.

There is no "right or wrong"... it all boils down to what floats your boat.

 

[RogerP]

To me it is all about the particular knife and particular user. In other words.... personal preference.

There is no "right or wrong"... it all boils down to what floats your boat.

No argument here.

Roger

 

[Lorien]

as an experiment, point the index finger of your knife holding hand out, while curling your other three fingers in as if there was a knife in your hand. Then, take the index finger of your other hand and put it between your pinky and ring finger or middle and ring finger on your knife holding hand. With your knife holding fingers taught, pull your hand up and down trying to part the fingers that the index finger of your other hand is between.

You will likely find that there is very little movement. Your fingers are very hard to part from each other if locked in place. Now consider that you have a handle to hold onto as well, which now amplifies that strength as there is now a solid surface to support your grip.

That a guard protects one's hand from the edge I feel is not the correct way to look at it. The edge doesn't move in relation to the handle. I believe that a guard protects against the movement of your hand toward to edge. If you use the guard as a an index or leverage point with a finger on either side of it, then the guard still fulfills this purpose. If all your digits remain behind the guard, that also fulfills this purpose.

To answer your question Roger, no, for some uses that grip is not safe. For others, yes, it is perfectly safe. That a knife is designed to offer up this option I personally see as a good thing. I am going to strongly consider this design philosophy when I design knives of a type where this option could be of use.

 

[Mark Knapp]

as an experiment, point the index finger of your knife holding hand out, while curling your other three fingers in as if there was a knife in your hand. Then, take the index finger of your other hand and put it between your pinky and ring finger or middle and ring finger on your knife holding hand. With your knife holding fingers taught, pull your hand up and down trying to part the fingers that the index finger of your other hand is between.

You will likely find that there is very little movement. Your fingers are very hard to part from each other if locked in place. Now consider that you have a handle to hold onto as well, which now amplifies that strength as there is now a solid surface to support your grip.

That a guard protects one's hand from the edge I feel is not the correct way to look at it. The edge doesn't move in relation to the handle. I believe that a guard protects against the movement of your hand toward to edge. If you use the guard as a an index or leverage point with a finger on either side of it, then the guard still fulfills this purpose. If all your digits remain behind the guard, that also fulfills this purpose.

To answer your question Roger, no, for some uses that grip is not safe. For others, yes, it is perfectly safe. That a knife is designed to offer up this option I personally see as a good thing. I am going to strongly consider this design philosophy when I design knives of a type where this option could be of use.

Your experiment is very well stated, I was going to say that even if a finger is ahead of the guard, the gaurd is still doing the job of keeping the users hand on the handle where the user put it. It is not as if it was non-existant. I do think still that in the picture that David posted with the finger that is wider that the ricasso is more dangerous than it ought to be. That finger needs a longer ricasso or it probably should stay behind the guard.

Also, I would like to say the line up of hunters that Roger posted are amazing and anyone that owns them has the right to be proud of them. I hope none of them ever see a bloody finger in front of or behind the guard. Are they all in your collection Roger? Thanks for showing them.

 

[2knife]

From one of Ed Fowler's yearlings, the edge profile from ricasso forward. Note a
small area left unsharpened.

Mark,
Thank you for participating in this thread. A couple from your website, "show and tell" time. Your combination of natural materials is a talent!
Rattlesnake hunter

Snakewood hunter

http://markknappcustomknives.com/

These two photos should follow the initial ones i posted from Stuart. This is a more recent knife, with more room at ricasso. He says it's #14, in
total. A tremendously gifted guy! My thanks to him, using his knife photos as the "guinnea pig" for this thread.

Great dialogue from all. And, especially to Ed. The "innovator"! .:thumbup:.
David

 

[SBranson]

Thanks David. I as mentioned I sent you those as I thought the photo in the original post wasn't really the best example of this style properly executed. It seemed to lead to the perception that this style is more dangerous than it is.
I think these pics of a later and better iteration of Ed's style are a better representation from me.

Just wanted to say that as the knife in the first photo was feeling more and more like a mistake.

Great shots of Ed's ricasso!