One pissed off newbie. Medford Knife and Tool.

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Fraud statutes in most states are written to specifically require intent (scienter)... and if he gives the money back it's a moot point. No where you can you prove he intended to take your funds AND not give you anything in return. I don't know this guy Medford, and while changing wait times after you give him the funds may be entirely unethical, its not illegal.

I don't understand the appeal of that knife whatsoever, stubby as hell and thick as a brick. Looks like a lot of effort is out into the knives though.

I hope it works out for the OP
 
If we believe the OP, the accused admitted that, at the time they gave the estimate of 30-34 weeks, there was no intent to perform in that period. That is, the accused knew that its representation was false when made. This goes beyond mere breach of contract.

One who, in the course of his business, profession or employment, or in any other transaction in which he
has a pecuniary interest, supplies false information for the guidance of others in their business transactions, is
subject to liability for pecuniary loss caused to them by their justifiable reliance upon the information, if he fails to
exercise reasonable care or competence in obtaining or communicating the information.
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Restatement of Torts 2d, Sec 552.
 
Thomas Linton said:
If we believe the OP, the accused admitted that, at the time they gave the estimate of 30-34 weeks, there was no intent to perform in that period. That is, the accused knew that its representation was false when made. This goes beyond mere breach of contract.



Restatement of Torts 2d, Sec 552.
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I think you're missing my point. Inept business practice in and of itself is not fraud or breach of contract.

And unless you have knowledge that we all don't, you see all the required elements of a contract here?

And your source is a from a general discussion of common law, that's not state statute.

Do we know if he asked for the money back?
 
seeverscpa said:
Fraud statutes in most states are written to specifically require intent (scienter)... and if he gives the money back it's a moot point. No where you can you prove he intended to take your funds AND not give you anything in return. I don't know this guy Medford, and while changing wait times after you give him the funds may be entirely unethical, its not illegal.

I don't understand the appeal of that knife whatsoever, stubby as hell and thick as a brick. Looks like a lot of effort is out into the knives though.

I hope it works out for the OP
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I don't know about individual state laws regarding the fraud thing, but I DO know that you are wrong about changing the terms of the contract after the delivery time has expired. Seeing how this contract has been negotiated to take place between states, with delivery to be done by mail, Federal law kicks in (postal fraud).

That is against the law, unless Medford provides a full refund.
 
Russell I'm not arguing with you. I understand the posters frustration in this situation. Let's hope he gets his knife or money.

I don't know this praetorian guy, I don't know his intent in this particular situation, no one does. But we have a bunch of people running around saying he's committed fraud, breach of contract, postal fraud... and not to go too far into the weeds, but there are specific legal elements that have to be present for certain actions between parties to be considered a contract. We don't know if those legal requirements were met. And fraud is either present or it's not, fraud isnt dependent on someone giving a refund or not. So to say he's committed fraud unless he gives a refund is contradictory on its face.

Maybe the guys a dick, maybe he's got shitty business practices, but I don't think we should run around and besmirch his business reputation with claims that he's committed fraud unless someone knows that for sure.

If I buy a knife off of knife center, as a pre-order, and their website says they're going to deliver it in 2 to 3 weeks, and they don't deliver it in 2 to 3 weeks, I can tell you unequivocally they have not committed fraud. And for that matter I haven't entered into a contract with them either. I can't force them to sell me the knife, I can't force them to go find a replacement knife and fulfill my order, irrespective of the fact they have my money. They can turn around and give me the money back with no recourse. That's not fraud.
 
Not fraud......just absolutely horrible business practice.
I pay, you tell me 30 weeks and won't deliver for 1 1/2 years??
 
seeverscpa said:
Russell I'm not arguing with you. I understand the posters frustration in this situation. Let's hope he gets his knife or money.

I don't know this praetorian guy, I don't know his intent in this particular situation, no one does. But we have a bunch of people running around saying he's committed fraud, breach of contract, postal fraud... and not to go too far into the weeds, but there are specific legal elements that have to be present for certain actions between parties to be considered a contract. We don't know if those legal requirements were met. And fraud is either present or it's not, fraud isnt dependent on someone giving a refund or not. So to say he's committed fraud unless he gives a refund is contradictory on its face.

Maybe the guys a dick, maybe he's got shitty business practices, but I don't think we should run around and besmirch his business reputation with claims that he's committed fraud unless someone knows that for sure.

If I buy a knife off of knife center, as a pre-order, and their website says they're going to deliver it in 2 to 3 weeks, and they don't deliver it in 2 to 3 weeks, I can tell you unequivocally they have not committed fraud. And for that matter I haven't entered into a contract with them either. I can't force them to sell me the knife, I can't force them to go find a replacement knife and fulfill my order, irrespective of the fact they have my money. They can turn around and give me the money back with no recourse. That's not fraud.
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I understand, and perhaps I came across too strong. We seem to be in agreement on a few points. In the example you cited, you can force a refund.

Medford states "no refunds". That won't fly, which is why I recommended that the OP politely request a refund. If he is refused, seek legal recourse.

I've no vested interest in the matter, and like you just hope that the OP is able to reach a satisfactory solution to his problem. If I've offended you or rubbed you the wrong way I apologize, I'm here for the fellowship and shared interests [emoji6]
 
bonky said:
I understand, and perhaps I came across too strong. We seem to be in agreement on a few points. In the example you cited, you can force a refund.

Medford states "no refunds". That won't fly, which is why I recommended that the OP politely request a refund. If he is refused, seek legal recourse.

I've no vested interest in the matter, and like you just hope that the OP is able to reach a satisfactory solution to his problem. If I've offended you or rubbed you the wrong way I apologize, I'm here for the fellowship and shared interests [emoji6]
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Well this Medford guy is completely nuts for sure. And I think you came across in proportion to how frustrated we would all be if this happened to us. I can ramble on incoherently about fraud all day long, but I sure as shit would probably have a different tune if it was my money that was paying for Mr. Medfords Natural Light Ice 18 months after I paid for a custom knife. :D

I have to tell you, I just came across this subforum today. After reading the "seriously" thread and almost dying from laughter, I had to look this subforum over.

When is the last time the OP had an update on the situation?
 
palonej said:
Not fraud......just absolutely horrible business practice.
I pay, you tell me 30 weeks and won't deliver for 1 1/2 years??
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It is fraud if no refund is offered once the delivery date has passed. Medford cannot keep both the money and the product.
 
seeverscpa said:
I think you're missing my point. Inept business practice in and of itself is not fraud or breach of contract.
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Absolutely agree. That's why simple failure to perform, often called "theft" here, is not theft.

And unless you have knowledge that we all don't, you see all the required elements of a contract here?
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Yes.

And your source is a from a general discussion of common law, that's not state statute.
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Good point. Although criminal fraud statutes generally track the common law, turns out the applicable criminal statute has fewer elements than the Common Law.

In Arizona, where Medford is located, the criminal statute reads:

"A. Any person who, pursuant to a scheme or artifice to defraud, knowingly obtains any benefit by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, promises or material omissions is guilty of a class 2 felony.

B. Reliance on the part of any person shall not be a necessary element of the offense described in subsection A of this section.
...
E. As used in this section, "scheme or artifice to defraud" includes a scheme or artifice to deprive a person of the intangible right of honest services."

According to the OP, the accused represented that the knife would be delivered in 30-34 weeks knowing at the time that it would not be delivered until about 78 weeks: "they said that they put those times on their [sic] as an estimate but they almost always go longer." This state of the evidence says to me that it was a regular practice at Medford to lead on eager potential customers by deliberately grossly misrepresenting time of performance. More than double time of performance seems material to me. And, although it is not a element of the crime in Arizona, the OP clearly relied on the deliberate misrepresentation of material fact.

Relying on the OP's statement, of course.
 
I'd think in 30+ weeks most people would realize how ugly these knives are and cancel if it were an option.
 
It would be good to hear Medford's response to this. It's clear that the timeline Medford Knife & Tool provided at the point of sale has exceeded well beyond what was initially agreed to.

Medford's Terms:

Medford Knife Purchase Terms and Conditions:

All sales are final. We don’t have these knives sitting in boxes on shelves. When you order we pull raw materials from inventory and put them in queue with similar parts and processes. Even with long lead times the parts are in motion and we are investing heavily in getting the grinding and hand work accomplished as quickly as possible. If you cancel your order we are committed to models and colors and all sorts of hardware and since we aren’t in the retail stocking business it is very expensive to deal with partial blades.
Sales cancelled will forfeit all monies paid for the reasons stated in #1.
Knife specifications including color, material, customization and finish, agreed to at the time of sale are final and not subject to alteration or updating to newer models (refer to #1).
Any change to an order after it’s placed will incur a 10% re-procurement fee plus any additional material change fee.
Changes within 45 days of delivery will be accommodated as follows:
Lead times for hand manufacturing of blades is not an exact science and may vary dramatically. Be patient and allow us to make your blade with the same uncompromising pursuit of quality that enticed you to buy in the first place.
There are no returns, these are premium hand-made custom blades and made to order. There is no return department and we don’t keep this stuff in stock. If you have an issue we will make it right.
Disassembly or modifications to finishes voids all warranties expressed or implied.
No portion of this agreement may be amended or changed without consent of both parties through written or email record.

ref: http://www.medfordknife.com/page.php?pid=Our Terms


It has to be exceptionally frustrating to have over 1k tied up in a knife that is well behind schedule to what has been originally quoted and to see many retailers/distributors receive their knives in bulk. There clearly has to be some issue either with their process management or they are giving priority to larger orders from retailers and distributors. Being in eCommerce for well over 10 years, no self-respecting retailer would tolerate your experience without discounts/credits applied to both current and future POs.
 
Dry curious if the OP has reached out to Medford.
He seems to be one of the easiest to reach owners.
Come on OP.......SUP brother????
Joe
 
palonej said:
Dry curious if the OP has reached out to Medford.
He seems to be one of the easiest to reach owners.
Come on OP.......SUP brother????
Joe
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"I email them to check on the status. They proceed to tell me that orders that were placed during that month have a year and a half wait. I emailed back and said ok well what happened to this email and my receipt that have another date. they said that they put those times on their as an estimate but they almost always go longer."
 
I was wondering if he reached out to Greg for any other information on his order.
 
Yet another reason not to order a Medford. OP you've waited 3x as long as the quoted time. It's past time to get the ball rolling on getting your money back.
 
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