Only Bark river passed knife tests !!!

[rifon2]

The EXACT same promotional nonsense has been used to promote some of the lowest grade knives on the market. Just take a look at OFFICIAL "Navy Seal" (or whatever) knives. There are many that have passed some "tests" and are thus endorsed to some completely meaningless level.

As a sure sign the tests were useless is the fact that the knife didn't need to be sharpened. This shows that the usage was very low and NOT on FIELD GRADE material because such is ALWAYS used and full of grit and dirt as ANYONE who uses knives in such conditions knows.

The most you can say from such a test is that the knife which passed is just as good as the lowest knife to even pass such a trial. The Buck Solution for example was one such knife, I gave that to my brother, who used it IN THE FIELD as a carpenter and it was DESTROYED cutting some PINE in minutes.

The minute you start using some test as proof of quality then YES you have a responsibility to actually provide the data. It is only here where such nonsense is actually accepted. If you were going to buy a car would you accept such vague claims or would you actually ask how and what was actually evaluated?

Plus of course, how would someone like Lynn Thompson be reacted to if he posted similar about one of his knives. Would there be such a wide acceptance. No and this is obviously because this was done (you can check the forums) and everyone questioned exactly what was done and what way the results were measured.

-Cliff

Much of this is true.
But what's not mentioned is that much of American selling is done using this exact same type of "affiliation with the best" technique.

BMW or SAAB or whichever car company says "JD Power & Associates awarded us the Best Midsize Sedan in Initial Quality", or something similar to that.

I guess Mike Stewart's credibility is closer to JD Power's than Lynn Thompson's is.

You know what I'm referring to.

"The NY Yankees grounds crew use XYZ lawn treatment"

"Dick Schmuck of the NY Times said XYZ is the Best Movie of the Year!"
"And so did Jane Putz of Time Magazine!
"Larry King Raved about it!"

"Bimbo Recording Studios, where the soundtrack to Star Wars was recorded, uses Aardvark Loudspeakers!"

"La Dee Dah 5 star restaurant serves only ABC coffee."

"Rated #1 by Zagat"

"Rated #1 by the Michelin Guide"

etc
etc
etc

 

[rifon2]

And so then you get "Navy Seals" use SOG (AUS 6 and Kraton) knife.

It's the same thing.

Very effective with the American buying public.

 

[bigox]

As a sure sign the tests were useless is the fact that the knife didn't need to be sharpened. This shows that the usage was very low and NOT on FIELD GRADE material because such is ALWAYS used and full of grit and dirt as ANYONE who uses knives in such conditions knows.

I think if you read all of Mike's posts on the subject you will find that it was a desire for a knife that held it edge well and is easily sharpened in the field.

The most you can say from such a test is that the knife which passed is just as good as the lowest knife to even pass such a trial. The Buck Solution for example was one such knife, I gave that to my brother, who used it IN THE FIELD as a carpenter and it was DESTROYED cutting some PINE in minutes..

I don't really see how anyone who has owned one can equate a BUCK Solution and any Bark River. Does Buck have a no BS Warranty like Bark River?

The minute you start using some test as proof of quality then YES you have a responsibility to actually provide the data. It is only here where such nonsense is actually accepted. If you were going to buy a car would you accept such vague claims or would you actually ask how and what was actually evaluated?

So a man cannot be proud that a group of elite fighting men choose his knife, out of $5000 worth of knives, to spend their own hard earned money on? The claim is not that this is the best knife for everyone. The claim is not even that it is the best knife. How could it be? You don't even know what other knives where tested. Regardless of how they came to the decision the claim is that they choose to take his knife into harms way and I don't think that a "nonsense". As long as they really do then that claim is fulfilled. When you are standing beside them in harms way take some pics for me because I will not be there.

 

[robertmegar]

The EXACT same promotional nonsense has been used to promote some of the lowest grade knives on the market...... endorsed to some completely meaningless level.....The minute you start using some test as proof of quality
-Cliff

Cliff, were is the promotional nonsense?!? I have yet to see an advertisement boosting that Marines picked their pick. Again, you are very sensationalistic trying to conjure some type of endorsement were there is none. And, BRKT is not using this as a "proof of quality" (please stop watching "more proof" re-runs from LT), actually the knives speak quality for themselves.

 

[jvan]

Cliff, don't you have a couple lingering unanswered questions regarding your published work? Still waiting for your reply.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Much of this is true.
But what's not mentioned is that much of American selling is done using this exact same type of "affiliation with the best" technique.

Of course and that is nonsense as well. Just like when Cold Steel rants about the newest steel they are using was the BEST in some tests they conducted. Every knife and every steel will be the best if you pick the right tests. Thus it should be immediately obvious this is a meaningless statement when you don't define anything.

And so then you get "Navy Seals" use SOG (AUS 6 and Kraton) knife.

Exactly, that is all you can claim, that your product is only as good as the WORST knife which passed similar tests, and there have been some pretty low end knives passing such criteria.

I think if you read all of Mike's posts on the subject you will find that it was a desire for a knife that held it edge well and is easily sharpened in the field.

Yes and if you never had to sharpen a knife after field use then you never seriously used it, or you like using very dull knives. Actually working with used materials is very dulling on knives because they are full of inclusions. While you can cut 100+ pieces of hemp rope new, try cutting hemp rope around a box (or whatever) that has been outside and see the edge holding. Plus how can you evaluate the sharpening if you don't sharpen it.

I don't really see how anyone who has owned one can equate a BUCK Solution and any Bark River. Does Buck have a no BS Warranty like Bark River?

Actually yes. But my point was that knife had a similar claim and was useless. Ask around and see how many people would put a high and deep hollow grind on high carbide steel for such a knife.

Regardless of how they came to the decision the claim is that they choose to take his knife into harms way and I don't think that a "nonsense". As long as they really do then that claim is fulfilled.

It is nonsense to use it as a promotional tool. In the capacity that it has been done, especially as the title of this thread does explicitly for reasons noted many times in the above.

Cliff, were is the promotional nonsense?

If you don't see it as promotional do you think that if the knife scored dead last by the same group do you think it would be just as eagerly reported. If not then that is direct proof it is selective promotion.

As for my research, anyone who is curious is free to drop into my actual lab. I will easily arrange a tour if you are in the area. Just contact me by email and I will set it up. If you want a print of an actual journal article then I'll also arrange to have one sent.

-Cliff

 

[Jerry Busse]

I would like to know if there were any Busse, Swamprat or Scrapyard knives in the mix !!!

There were NO Busse Combat, Swamp Rat, or Scrap Yard blades supplied for these tests.

Congrats to Mike and the crew at Bark River!!! :thumbup:

Jerry





.

 

[geneepi]

As for my research, anyone who is curious is free to drop into my actual lab. I will easily arrange a tour if you are in the area. Just contact me by email and I will set it up. If you want a print of an actual journal article then I'll also arrange to have one sent.

-Cliff

Just a quick list of the journals you've published in will work.
I sure am having trouble finding any besides one or two from a number of years ago.

 

[geneepi]

Ask around and see how many people would put a high and deep hollow grind on high carbide steel for such a knife.
-Cliff

When I first saw this thread I knew that Stamp would chime in sooner or later with his "expert" opinion.

Lets see...who's opinion do I find more credible?

Cliff Stamp: obscure physicist & backyard hack

Mike Stewart: well respected person the industry, who's actually has been building knives for years

Not a hard choice for me.

 

[Boats]

Uh, people were lining up for Bark River's product long before the Marines were in the picture. The company doesn't need the Marines to sell their product.

That said, if a subset of Marines comes forth and says, "Hey, we tested one of your beefier models, we have some suggested changes for a procurement run. . . ." why wouldn't that be a feather in one's cap, especially when the feather is tastefully displayed with no mention made of the alleged competitors?

Truth be told, it was the fanboys of various makers who blew this out of proportion. It is not as if Mike Stewart issued a press release and then bombed the gun & knife press with this tidbit. No one is saying BRKT made the USMC's next fighting knife or that every jarhead will now be toting a Bravo-1 survival knife.

He is going to sell every Bravo-1 made, just as he already sells every Gameskeeper out of that shop.

The quality of every BRKT speaks for itself. Some of the designs are better thought out than are others, but I never hear of anyone complaining about the physical execution of the knives or about the factory backing.

My personal anecdote: I acquired a NIB curly maple handled BRKT Gameskeeper and posted photos of it on the internet. Mike saw the photos and messaged me that he didn't think the wood was figured enough for the maple to have been called "curly" and said to send it in if I wished to. They rehandled my brand new knife for the cost of mailing it. It came back with different curly maple scales that easily added about $20-30 dollars of eventual resale value. I know it did not cost them much to do it, but they offered it without my even complaining about it in the first place.

And I have never had a problem with the steel on any BRKT.

Maybe the Marines should be advertising that BRKT did a production run just for them.

 

[asfried2]

THEY didn't publish anything, neither the Marines nor BRKT.

Actually, BRKT did publish the results. Check out the original post.

And, of course, anybody can say, do, publish, test, talk about, or endorse anything they want be they SEAL, Marine Recon, knifemaker, or (in my case) former Naval Aviator. But this thread seems to be about what we should do with the information disseminated by Mike Stewart of BRKT (a pretty good guy by all accounts). I would put it out there that without publication of data and methods this is a product endorsement, NOT a field test. Just like I said before, if Lance wants me to buy a Trek, he better do more than just tell me how cool it is. Love the USMC, love Bark River (own several of their knives). Probably won't buy a Bravo-1 because of this endorsement. After all, a middle aged former Naval Aviator cum simple country pediatrician is as far as one can get from a young, tough, active duty Recon Marine, so I figure the knife they helped design is probably all wrong for me. Might change my mind and buy one if I learn something concrete.

 

[Boats]

I guess that is true, if by results, they mentioned a procurement. "Results" to me would have included mention of the also-rans.

 

[hardheart]

Just to say the Marines chose a BRKT, I don't think anyone has a problem with that. To say that the BRKT beat out other knives, people then want to know what the other knives were. To say that they ran tests, people would like to know what the tests were. Hell, tests maybe just show that the Bravo-1 could be better at spreading PB&J on bread when compared to a Hibben designed Frost.

 

[Grebo Guru]

Cliff Stamp: obscure physicist & backyard hack.

Cliff's argument is not weakened by his lack of fame.

I'd like to observe that this particular knife is not worth anything less just because POS knives have passed the same test in the past. . . but then, that wasn't really Cliff's point. He was criticising the testing methodology, that it only applies to one particular group of users (guys that probably don't have time to sharpen a knife in the field). But they were not trying to find the best knife on the planet, just the one that best fit their particular use (and budget, and being made in the USA, etc).

Personally, I am not surprised that a manufacturer is proud that a certain group choses to use his product. . . whatever their line of work. . . and declines to publish the full results of testing because he does not want to be seen as trashing other companies.

 

[Blue Sky]

There were NO Busse Combat, Swamp Rat, or Scrap Yard blades supplied for these tests.

Congrats to Mike and the crew at Bark River!!! :thumbup:

Jerry
.

For the record, the original thread states the knives were all bought by the Marines and not supplied by the manufacturers, so there is still no way to know whether BC/SW or SY knives (or any other maker) were included or not in the group.

Oh, and yes congratulations are definitely in order.:thumbup:

 

[pitdog]

Cliff, were is the promotional nonsense?!? I have yet to see an advertisement boosting that Marines picked their pick. Again, you are very sensationalistic trying to conjure some type of endorsement were there is none. And, BRKT is not using this as a "proof of quality" (please stop watching "more proof" re-runs from LT), actually the knives speak quality for themselves.

:foot:

Here is the promotional nonsense........

This knife was developed with the assistance of the Training Unit of the Force Recon Division of the U.S. Marine Corp. These folks Bought a large number of knives on the Commercial market and tested them without saying anything to any of the makers. The Bark River Gameskeeper came out on Top to Fit their Requirements of a Real Time General Purpose Survival/Bushcraft Knife. We were Contacted by them and were asked to make a knife based on the Gameskeeper with a Few Changes. The Bravo-1 is the Result of their Input.

 

[Broos]

No, it isn't the same government. It isn't the government at all. Its the Marines themselves. One of their units decided which knives got the most buzz, bought the knives on the open market, and beat them to death in real-world activities. Except one survived.

This was not a laboratory exercise conducted by impartially ignorant researchers.

Huh? The Army selected the Beretta. So you gig me for calling the military the government - do you not understand the the pretty tight connection between the military and the government? This is pretty common usage of the term as far as I am aware.

So you trust the marines tests and think the Army is impartial and ignorant? I believe the Marines also purchase the beretta, so they must have agreed.

Where does it say "one survived" - I guess you want to add to the hype.

As I said, I think they make a fine knife. If you want to base your gear purchasing decisions based on unknown military tests go right ahead. I only objected to the thread title.

 

[pitdog]

There were NO Busse Combat, Swamp Rat, or Scrap Yard blades supplied for these tests.

Congrats to Mike and the crew at Bark River!!! :thumbup:

Jerry





.

I never doubted it !!! :thumbup:

 

[asfried2]

obscure physicist & backyard hack

Don't know Cliff and haven't read enough of his site to be able to comment on his methodologies one way or another.

But that quote sounds like it could be used to describe Ben Franklin or Tom Edison.

 

[kycolonel]

Since the Marines procured the knives to be tested with their own money and published no results, how did you conclude that Busse was not one of the knives in their tests? Or, are you assuming they could not afford to buy one?