Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
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6-8 minutes with a diamond stone sounds about right.
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Ontario RAT 3 review
- Thread starter cabala
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I forgot something important!
Sheaths do melt very easy, burn easy so beware if you sit close to camp fire. Even with tek lock, knife would be easy to lose in outdoors, especially in extreme situation. Very weak sheath with much possibilities to carry and lose knife.
Is it just me or does it look like his finger is bending the clip?
Cabala, here are some long-established facts for you:
1) 1095 is an impact-resistant and easy to sharpen steel with excellent edge retention properties. Its drawback is that it has little to no corrosion resistance and as such must be cared for better than stainless steels.
2) Micarta is an impact-resistant handle material that retains little water (or other fluids) and dries quickly. It provides a secure grip even wen wet.
3) Small handles can be comfortably used by those with large hands. Just use three fingers and place the butt of the knife in the palm of the hand.
4) Choils ("blade notches") serve in some cases as finger holds for choking up on your grip for performing controlled or detailed tasks. Their primary purpose is to allow for more uniform sharpening of a blade and as a stress relief so that the blade is more able to take impact without causing strain an specific points.
5) Polymer sheaths give advantages in knife retention and rot/mildew resistance compared to natural materials. Some types can become brittle in extreme cold, but generally this is far from a concern.
All of the above materials and features have been used for some time by manufacturers and custom makers, and have been chosen as a result of their highly desirable and proven qualities. If they didn't work, they wouldn't use them.
I hope this has "learned you" something. What you have is not a review, but an unstructured and weakly-conceived rant. This is not "whine & cheese" but a statement of fact. I know this isn't what you were hoping to hear, but as you stated earlier "the truth hurts." Cheers.
My finger bending clip to show how weak he is.
1. So short knife doesn't need impact resistant steel then with long cutting ability. 4 hours of resharpening isn't easy at all especially when is blade length 3,5 and 4,5 ( TAK ).
2. How is micarta inpact resistant you can see on " Youtube " on RTAK destruction test. Soaking fluids and quick drying means cracking in structure in extreme conditions, what would it be if knife handle freezes?
3. I want secure grip on handle and manufacturer must know how to design it. It isn't problem in my hands then in very poor shape of handle.
4. Blade notches have purpose to outflow fluids not to be knife handle. Holding blade is complete nonsense.
5. When polymer burn it behave like napalm. Would You like better that hot polymer melts on you instead to burn as natural material?
Custom makers ( best ones ) use stag, horn, wood, stone as his first choice.
If You don't have facts, please don't learn anyone. My so called " reviews " are just my opinion about these knives and i don't try to learn nobody.
Do you have this knife?
1. So short knife doesn't need impact resistant steel then with long cutting ability. 4 hours of resharpening isn't easy at all especially when is blade length 3,5 and 4,5 ( TAK ).
2. How is micarta inpact resistant you can see on " Youtube " on RTAK destruction test. Soaking fluids and quick drying means cracking in structure in extreme conditions, what would it be if knife handle freezes?
3. I want secure grip on handle and manufacturer must know how to design it. It isn't problem in my hands then in very poor shape of handle.
4. Blade notches have purpose to outflow fluids not to be knife handle. Holding blade is complete nonsense.
5. When polymer burn it behave like napalm. Would You like better that hot polymer melts on you instead to burn as natural material?
Custom makers ( best ones ) use stag, horn, wood, stone as his first choice.
If You don't have facts, please don't learn anyone. My so called " reviews " are just my opinion about these knives and i don't try to learn nobody.
Do you have this knife?
Mistwalker
Gold Member
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- Dec 22, 2007
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- 19,017
There is a big difference between the terms impact resistant and and indestructible
Dear sir, do yourself a favor and stop reading my " reviews " and write one to proof how I'm " inexperienced ". Insulting and arrogant attitude doesn't proof nothing. Intelligent man as probably
Two knives but with very short blade.
Why instead of writing this You try to fully resharpen such knife. You have knife with 1095 steel?
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2005
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- 5,069
LOL, I can and have reprofiled knives that were twice as thick, with much thicker bevels than the rat. Those took about an hour after cleaning up the scratch marks. ( They were 60 deg included) The rat would take me literally 1-2 minutes to bring down to a 10 deg angle with a x coarse dmt, and less than that with a xx coarse. And yes, I,ve owned many 1095 knives.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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- Jun 13, 2007
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- 11,164
Many of us have knives with 1095 steel I even have a RAT-3 and find it very easy to sharpen. Its not an insult to you its the truth your reviews are misleading to those will less knife knowledge.
P.S. Its prove not proof
P.S. Its prove not proof
I have excellent Lansky diamond, regular and natural Arkansas sharpeners for two years and isn't problem in me or in sharpeners. This steel is good for bayonets and longer blades not for outdoor knives that size.
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- Jul 20, 2006
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Point has been made already. But if it takes you 6-8 hours to sharpen 1095 with a diamond stone, something's wrong. You said you were using a Lansky, so I assume you are actually reprofiling, not sharpening. Even then, 8 hours? Have you cleaned your stones lately? Maybe they're wore out?
What do You mean by " very easy " in terms of time?
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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- Jun 13, 2007
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- 11,164
1095 does not have a high wear resistance it should only take minutes to sharpen. I could scrape the edge of a RAT-3 on a peice of glass so that it was butter knife dull then sharpen it to hair whittleing sharpness in about 15 minutes. Thats what I mean by "very easy".
I have two bottles of honing oil and clear them before and after sharpening. Isn't problem in steel hardness, 420 HC has 58 Rc and it's easy to resharpen, must be the structure of 1095. This steel needs grinder.
Are You 18?
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- Oct 29, 2005
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#1 makes no sense.
key phrase here is "destruction test". nothing is indestructable, eventually everything will break given the correct application of force.
so you think they should have designed the knife to fit your hand specifically, with the foreknowledge that you wouldn't like the small grip?
i find the grip on the r3 to be quite comfortable.
no, it isn't nonsense. many people use the choil to choke up on the blade in order to do fine work.
in what circumstances would the sheath catch fire where the rest of you or your clothing was not already ablaze?
really? custom makers use stag, horn, wood, etc, sure. but perhaps you would like to remind the following they are not among the "best makers" because they frequently use micarta in its various densities: bob terzoula, jerry busse, chris reeve, dan koster, tom krein, greg lightfoot, tom mayo, bob loveless, stan fujisaka, al polkowski, mick strider, and on and on....
i have a rat 3 in d2, which is much harder to sharpen than 1095. i also have and have previously owned, knives in 1095.
ive never spent 6-8 hours sharpening anything.
you have been presented with many facts countering your "review", which is pretty useless as far as actual reviews go.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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- Jun 13, 2007
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- 11,164
If you are speaking of age then no I am 27 and have 18 years of knife and knife sharpening knowledge.
Did you fail english class?
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- Oct 6, 2008
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No problem, send it to me and I'll be happy to do it at standard shop rates
. 1095 is one of the easiest steels to resharpen or re-profile, while still having decent edge-holding and good toughness. That's a big part of its appeal. 1095 will be around for a long time, for good reasons. Perhaps if you love the Buck 119 so much, you should just stick with it.Me neither. Heck, I've never spent that long re-doing the whole bevel, with or without a grinder.
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- Feb 28, 2007
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Cabala - your lack of knowledge of cutlery shines through in much of the false information you provide. Here is the evidence:
1) You appear to have a relatively poor grasp of the properties of different types of steel. Comparing 420HC and 440C and indicating their similarity in ease of sharpening is an example of this. 440C has substantially greater wear resistance and as such is almost always more difficult to sharpen. 1095 and 420HC are much more similar to one another. However, when comparing similar, broadly speaking, steels, one has to keep in mind that edge geometry and how the blade was heat treated has as much to do with ease of sharpening as the steel itself. For example, the bucks that you like so much are hollow ground which makes them easier to sharpen at the sacrifice of other cutting properties and edge robustness.
2) You keep bringing up length of the handle as your largest critique. This is a design feature of the particular knife you have purchased. The point of having an EDC blade is that it is compact and takes up little room. The RC-3 was designed as a hybrid of some sorts, between the size of a pocket knife (for which it is a little too long) and a belt knife. It was also more specifically designed for use to clip on military vests and tactical gears. The real estate on these vests are critical because Professionals need to carry a lot of gear, thus they want a smaller sized knife.
3) You seem to have very little concept of what an EDC knife is. We understand your preference for larger knifes. If you like the 119 (which I like too!), then you tend to like mid-sized blades. Calling a buck 119 an EDC demonstrates your lack of understanding of what the general definitition of this category of knife is. By and large, most EDC fixed blades range from 1.5" blade lengths to 3.5" blade lengths. The blade lengths rarely exceed this. Likewise, the handles are kept short. The idea is that ease of carry are a primary feature of an EDC knife. Most people prefer an EDC that is between 6" and 7" total length (blade + handle). You need to understand that this categorization has a long history in the cutlery community - you need to conform to that categorization not just impart your opinion.
4) You apparently have a difficult time sharpening and are just learning the process. It should not take you 6 hours to sharpen a knife with a Lansky - unless you are trying to sharpen the spine. I've used Lanskies and have successfully reprofiled an RC-4 from a 20 degree angle to a 30 degree angle. The process took me about 1.5 hr to do and that involves removing a lot of metal. I suggest you practice more and become more proficient in sharpening before you comment on the properties of a knife in a review.
5) Your reviews do not have balance to them. You provide little commentary, which is the purpose of why somebody performs a review and why somebody would like to read one. You need to provide both positive and problematic points about the item being reviewed. If you can't find anything positive about the item, then you should at the very least indicate what were the features and attributes which attracted you to buy the knife in the first place? If you simply state that this is a really bad knife with no good properties, then it is you who looks like the fool for buying something so unsuitable for your needs. Your reviews always come off like you are trying to trash a product.
6) You need to do some research about the item in question. One thing you have consistently done is call this a RAT knife which is an incomplete description of the item. It says RAT on it, but it is an Ontario Rat knife. There is another knife, which in fact has a longer handle made by Rat Cutlery. Many people react strongly to your criticisms of this knife because you refuse to call it by its proper name and distinguish it from other products.
7) You should be aware of other reviews that have been performed on this product. A simple google search on the Ontario Rat-3 will provide a number of very good reviews of this blade. Your review contrasts dramatically with what others have said about the same blade. This tends to reduce the credibility of your review. If you want to gain credibility then you should acknoweldge that other reviewers have said X positive thing about the knife in question, but you disagree for various reasons.
Your comments about the choil are not novel but are valid. Some people like choils and others do not. They are a design feature, some can be used as a finger notch others are smaller and used to aid sharpening. When commenting about the choil it would be better to indicate that for example: you find that the choil of the Ontario Rat-3 to be too small to be used effectively as a finger notch but also is too large and takes up too much room on the knife.
So Cabala, if your interest is to persist in performing reviews of knives and posting them on Bladeforums than I suggest you do some homework and re-evaluate why it is you want to provide such reviews. Keep in mind that you are choosing to post in a forum whose members are very proficient technically speaking in cutlery related vocabulary, properties, statistics and testing methodology. You need to understand your audience first before you can convince them. Again - the purpose of a review is communication and to provide information and you will gain credibility when you are shown to be objective in how you present information.
I hope you find these comments useful. Some of them might be harsh, but they are not 'whine and cheese' type comments. You have asked for details about why people are having difficulty with your reviews. This was an attempt to give you some understanding to the reactions being presented to you.
Sincerely,
Ken
1) You appear to have a relatively poor grasp of the properties of different types of steel. Comparing 420HC and 440C and indicating their similarity in ease of sharpening is an example of this. 440C has substantially greater wear resistance and as such is almost always more difficult to sharpen. 1095 and 420HC are much more similar to one another. However, when comparing similar, broadly speaking, steels, one has to keep in mind that edge geometry and how the blade was heat treated has as much to do with ease of sharpening as the steel itself. For example, the bucks that you like so much are hollow ground which makes them easier to sharpen at the sacrifice of other cutting properties and edge robustness.
2) You keep bringing up length of the handle as your largest critique. This is a design feature of the particular knife you have purchased. The point of having an EDC blade is that it is compact and takes up little room. The RC-3 was designed as a hybrid of some sorts, between the size of a pocket knife (for which it is a little too long) and a belt knife. It was also more specifically designed for use to clip on military vests and tactical gears. The real estate on these vests are critical because Professionals need to carry a lot of gear, thus they want a smaller sized knife.
3) You seem to have very little concept of what an EDC knife is. We understand your preference for larger knifes. If you like the 119 (which I like too!), then you tend to like mid-sized blades. Calling a buck 119 an EDC demonstrates your lack of understanding of what the general definitition of this category of knife is. By and large, most EDC fixed blades range from 1.5" blade lengths to 3.5" blade lengths. The blade lengths rarely exceed this. Likewise, the handles are kept short. The idea is that ease of carry are a primary feature of an EDC knife. Most people prefer an EDC that is between 6" and 7" total length (blade + handle). You need to understand that this categorization has a long history in the cutlery community - you need to conform to that categorization not just impart your opinion.
4) You apparently have a difficult time sharpening and are just learning the process. It should not take you 6 hours to sharpen a knife with a Lansky - unless you are trying to sharpen the spine. I've used Lanskies and have successfully reprofiled an RC-4 from a 20 degree angle to a 30 degree angle. The process took me about 1.5 hr to do and that involves removing a lot of metal. I suggest you practice more and become more proficient in sharpening before you comment on the properties of a knife in a review.
5) Your reviews do not have balance to them. You provide little commentary, which is the purpose of why somebody performs a review and why somebody would like to read one. You need to provide both positive and problematic points about the item being reviewed. If you can't find anything positive about the item, then you should at the very least indicate what were the features and attributes which attracted you to buy the knife in the first place? If you simply state that this is a really bad knife with no good properties, then it is you who looks like the fool for buying something so unsuitable for your needs. Your reviews always come off like you are trying to trash a product.
6) You need to do some research about the item in question. One thing you have consistently done is call this a RAT knife which is an incomplete description of the item. It says RAT on it, but it is an Ontario Rat knife. There is another knife, which in fact has a longer handle made by Rat Cutlery. Many people react strongly to your criticisms of this knife because you refuse to call it by its proper name and distinguish it from other products.
7) You should be aware of other reviews that have been performed on this product. A simple google search on the Ontario Rat-3 will provide a number of very good reviews of this blade. Your review contrasts dramatically with what others have said about the same blade. This tends to reduce the credibility of your review. If you want to gain credibility then you should acknoweldge that other reviewers have said X positive thing about the knife in question, but you disagree for various reasons.
Your comments about the choil are not novel but are valid. Some people like choils and others do not. They are a design feature, some can be used as a finger notch others are smaller and used to aid sharpening. When commenting about the choil it would be better to indicate that for example: you find that the choil of the Ontario Rat-3 to be too small to be used effectively as a finger notch but also is too large and takes up too much room on the knife.
So Cabala, if your interest is to persist in performing reviews of knives and posting them on Bladeforums than I suggest you do some homework and re-evaluate why it is you want to provide such reviews. Keep in mind that you are choosing to post in a forum whose members are very proficient technically speaking in cutlery related vocabulary, properties, statistics and testing methodology. You need to understand your audience first before you can convince them. Again - the purpose of a review is communication and to provide information and you will gain credibility when you are shown to be objective in how you present information.
I hope you find these comments useful. Some of them might be harsh, but they are not 'whine and cheese' type comments. You have asked for details about why people are having difficulty with your reviews. This was an attempt to give you some understanding to the reactions being presented to you.
Sincerely,
Ken
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2005
- Messages
- 19,834
i would think any knife would be ground to a nub in far less than 6 hours.
Look, Cabala, I don't mean to offend you, but several people have replied to this thread and many more probably read it. So since no one has agreed with you, you're experience with 1095, resharpening, and the RAT3 is unique to yourself. Basically, it looks like you have problems with this knife no one else does.
I own an Ontario SP8 in 1095 which I use to chop up and split fire wood with when camping, and even when it gets dull, I can get it back to hair-shaving sharp in 20 minutes or so. 8 hours? You're doing something wrong. There are way too many knife manufacturers using 1095 for it to be a bad steel. You'd have an easier time convincing Goodyear that tires should not be made out of rubber.
If you like stainless steel, fine. But a non-stainless carbon steel like 1095 is much stronger. It will rust, but with very little care that can be prevented.
And the clip on the RAT3 sheath being too easy to bend? How are you going to get it open to clip to your belt if it won't bend? If loss is a worry, just tie some boot lace loops on both sides of the sheath and thread your belt through them like a traditional sheath.
I think you stand alone on with your complaints about this knife. Or you're just trying to type a bunch of nonsense to get folks stirred up for your entertainment. Which would be trolling.
I own an Ontario SP8 in 1095 which I use to chop up and split fire wood with when camping, and even when it gets dull, I can get it back to hair-shaving sharp in 20 minutes or so. 8 hours? You're doing something wrong. There are way too many knife manufacturers using 1095 for it to be a bad steel. You'd have an easier time convincing Goodyear that tires should not be made out of rubber.
If you like stainless steel, fine. But a non-stainless carbon steel like 1095 is much stronger. It will rust, but with very little care that can be prevented.
And the clip on the RAT3 sheath being too easy to bend? How are you going to get it open to clip to your belt if it won't bend? If loss is a worry, just tie some boot lace loops on both sides of the sheath and thread your belt through them like a traditional sheath.
I think you stand alone on with your complaints about this knife. Or you're just trying to type a bunch of nonsense to get folks stirred up for your entertainment. Which would be trolling.
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