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This is incorrect, and paypal will back it up. If I buy something from you, pay with G&S, and I don't get it, guess who's going to lose the claim?
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Opinion about knives lost during shipping
- Thread starter DailyEDC
- Start date
This is incorrect, and paypal will back it up. If I buy something from you, pay with G&S, and I don't get it, guess who's going to lose the claim?
ncrockclimb
Gold Member
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- Nov 20, 2014
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Seller is responsible.
That being said, if you can find the appropriate Customer Service person with USPS you might well be able to find your package. In December, I had a package go missing. It was an old model Fiddleback Forge Knife that was basically irreplaceable. Instead of calling my local USPS branch, I got in touch with the Phoenix CS office. The woman I spoke with was very professional and friendly, and when I explained what was in the package she became incredibly tenacious. Long story short, she made a ton of calls and worked her tail off to track down my package. I now own a beautiful old-school Fiddleback Woodsman.
I have dealt with the USPS CS offices in Phoenix, LA and Boston. All three were amazing and in every instance they resolved the issue. The service I have gotten from my local USPS office has ranged from OK to indifferent to terrible. YMMV, but I would suggest dealing with USPS Customer Service.
That being said, if you can find the appropriate Customer Service person with USPS you might well be able to find your package. In December, I had a package go missing. It was an old model Fiddleback Forge Knife that was basically irreplaceable. Instead of calling my local USPS branch, I got in touch with the Phoenix CS office. The woman I spoke with was very professional and friendly, and when I explained what was in the package she became incredibly tenacious. Long story short, she made a ton of calls and worked her tail off to track down my package. I now own a beautiful old-school Fiddleback Woodsman.
I have dealt with the USPS CS offices in Phoenix, LA and Boston. All three were amazing and in every instance they resolved the issue. The service I have gotten from my local USPS office has ranged from OK to indifferent to terrible. YMMV, but I would suggest dealing with USPS Customer Service.
Note to Self:
Noted!
I'm right there with ya on that one. When I buy a knife I don't request extra insurance because I assume the seller knows it's their responsibility. When I sell a knife I always pay for the insurance unless I'm willing to suffer the loss if the package gets lost or damaged. You should probably do a little research on the subject before you get in that unfortunate situation colibrid, because unless you explicitly state that the buyer is responsible for insurance, you don't have a leg to stand on. Even then, I don't think paypal would back you up because if the buyer either didn't receive their item or it wasn't as described, they have a perfectly legitimate claim. I guess if you request f&f you have nothing to worry about
@DailyEDC
I feel like it's the sellers responsibility to make sure the item is delivered to the buyer. I've been thinning out my collection for several months now and have shipped out close to 100 knives all with insurance ranging from $100-$1500 and none of my packages have been targeted for theft. Insurance for a $100 package is like $3 and the more expensive ones were only like $10-$15, so it was well worth the extra cost to me.
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I'm not sure I follow your logic.
Let's just suppose that you order something from Amazon.com. They give you a confirmation email for order received, charge your card, and send you a shipping confirmation with tracking.
Now suppose your package gets lost in transit, and tracking updates stop.
You're telling me that if you never receive your order, that's OK, because as the buyer it's your loss to eat?
Scenario #2:
What if I drive to my local Wendy's and order a #6 Spicy Chicken Sandwich Combo Meal, BIGGIE sized with a Dr. Pepper. I pull up to the first window, fork over my hard earned money for a well deserved culinary experience, but when I pull up to window #2, they tell me "Sorry sir, we made you a fresh and amazing #6 Spicy Chicken Sandwich Combo Meal, BIGGIE sized with a Dr. Pepper. We had everything carefully wrapped and packaged, ready to send your taste buds on a journey that they would not soon forget, when our drive-thru trainee Steve accidentally gave it to the vehicle ahead of you. Unfortunately, that was the last #6 Spicy Chicken Sandwich Combo Meal, BIGGIE sized with a Dr. Pepper that we could make for you today, as our weekly delivery truck just exploded off of I-94 due to a previously unseen leak in one of the fuel tanks."
Now, you're telling me that I should just eat my losses (as opposed to my delicious #6 Spicy Chicken Sandwich Combo Meal, BIGGIE sized with a Dr. Pepper) and drive away?
If that IS in fact what you're telling me, then the next time I'm driving through a Wendy's Old Fashioned Drive Thru, I'm going to insist that they allow me to purchase insurance on my #6 Spicy Chicken Sandwich Combo Meal, BIGGIE sized with a Dr. Pepper, before I even THINK about pulling up to that first window.
Peter Hartwig
Gold Member
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If you buy a knife from me, you will either get the knife or your money back. That is only reasonable. Buying insurance or not is up to me, but refunding the buyers money has nothing to do with my buying or not buying the insurance. I do not expect them to wait until the claim has been paid, only enough time that we can be reasonably sure the package is gone for good.
of course if I feel I am being scammed, I might take a different attitude.
Full disclosure-This does not pertain to international shipments, which may have different agreed on terms by both parties & I may not be able to even purchase insurance or get tracking for the item.
of course if I feel I am being scammed, I might take a different attitude.
Full disclosure-This does not pertain to international shipments, which may have different agreed on terms by both parties & I may not be able to even purchase insurance or get tracking for the item.
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As the sellers, we are responsible until that product reaches the customer's hands. Period. If it's lost, make it right...however you can based on customer and situation. As a business, you have to factor in occasional losses from lost shipments, damage, theft, etc... it's business.
On insurance, not only is USPS hard to get a claim from, they won't pay at all if it shows as "delivered"...even if it wasn't...or if you don't have proof they received it to start with. Always get a receipt! In your case, sounds like their only out is if you can't prove value...you can prove they had it and didn't deliver.
We use ShipStation to create and track all of our shipments. They offer a 3rd party insurance (Shipsurance) that is cheaper than USPS. While I can't vouch for claim handling with them (we haven't had one yet), it can't be worse than USPS, and it doesn't cancel out the $100 already included from USPS with Priority Mail (as far as I know). That being said, we don't typically insure anything under a certain dollar amount. It's all risk assessment. If it's over $700, we require an adult signature at minimum...this meets PayPal's guidelines for seller protection by the way! We also always have signature required for apartments and PO Boxes. We always insure international for anything over a few hundred dollars. We don't make customers pay insurance, it protects us, not them.
Bottom line is that insurance isn't 100% guaranteed either...so it comes down to how many packages are lost percentage-wise and is that loss cheaper than paying for insurance that may not cover anyways. Overall losses are likely less than the cost of insurance for every package in between the lost ones.
- Robert
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I run on this method...EXCEPT....
I do not ship to countries where I cannot Track/Insure.
Most of the Buyers from these "High-Risk" cities/countries have a trusted contact in either the USA or Canada who can forward the knife, knives, or whatever, to them. They usually know EXACTLY how to get things into difficult places.
If your Buyer hasn't got someone, he's a n00b and a RISK. I see guys taking the gamble when a foreigner pays over-market on something.
Greed can bite you....always...
expect to be "Bitten"
(see my username)
.
I have had a postal worker tell me to my face that if you cannot objectively prove the insured value of the item you insured, then your claim is going to be denied. Thus, you are kidding yourself if you think the USPS is going to pay out more than a few hundred dollars for a pocketknife. This is why certain high end dealers will only ship FedEx- the postal service insurance thing is a joke. Just my opinion, but I happen to believe it based on actual conversations with postal employees.
Funny stuff KTAGF!
Colubrid, I really think you should add a disclaimer to your sales posts. "Product is not guaranteed to arrive, and you will not be refunded in this case"
I mean, come on, get real!
If you use PayPal, then your very unique and self serving perspective will not matter, as PayPal takes charge and makes the right decision for you. Even if your first instinct is to blame the carrier and expect buyer to bear that loss, good practices will prevail. But why would anyone want to do business with you if you can't guarantee they'll get what they paid for? I would never buy from a seller with this lack of concern for outcomes! Who would, if they knew your policy?
Do you feel the same as a buyer? If you purchase a shirogorov from a vendor and it doesn't arrive, you just shrug and say, "oh well"?
Ya right.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Colubrid, I really think you should add a disclaimer to your sales posts. "Product is not guaranteed to arrive, and you will not be refunded in this case"
I mean, come on, get real!
If you use PayPal, then your very unique and self serving perspective will not matter, as PayPal takes charge and makes the right decision for you. Even if your first instinct is to blame the carrier and expect buyer to bear that loss, good practices will prevail. But why would anyone want to do business with you if you can't guarantee they'll get what they paid for? I would never buy from a seller with this lack of concern for outcomes! Who would, if they knew your policy?
Do you feel the same as a buyer? If you purchase a shirogorov from a vendor and it doesn't arrive, you just shrug and say, "oh well"?
Ya right.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Nope. Not even close. Insurance is to protect the seller. It is 100% the sellers responsibility to get the sold item to the buyer. Until then, the item is still the sellers property. Of course when you clearly ask for gift payments it is no doubt why you would think the insurance is on the buyer.
With logic like this and also asking for "net" payments you will make a lot of "do not buy from lists".
OP, as long as the buyer is comfortable, give it time. It might show up. I've only had one package lost and it was not in the United States but was completely in the USPS system (Puerto Rico). Always pay for insurance if you can't afford to lose the item and the money. Also, don't just file a claim online. Go to a PO and talk to someone. Be persistent. Have your documents in order. In the least you can get your $50 back, at best they might be more inclined to help you out (read: get you off their back) if you politely follow up with them face to face.
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The seller has to file a claim if the item is lost, period. The buyer has no means to purchase insurance on something they are not shipping. No means to file a claim. If the item is lost, the buyer never had possession and therefor has no legal right to claim loss. Never deal with anyone that tries to shift their responsibility of delivery to you the buyer.
Funny stuff KTAGF!
Colubrid, I really think you should add a disclaimer to your sales posts. "Product is not guaranteed to arrive, and you will not be refunded in this case"
I mean, come on, get real!
If you use PayPal, then your very unique and self serving perspective will not matter, as PayPal takes charge and makes the right decision for you. Even if your first instinct is to blame the carrier and expect buyer to bear that loss, good practices will prevail. But why would anyone want to do business with you if you can't guarantee they'll get what they paid for? I would never buy from a seller with this lack of concern for outcomes! Who would, if they knew your policy?
Do you feel the same as a buyer? If you purchase a shirogorov from a vendor and it doesn't arrive, you just shrug and say, "oh well"?
Ya right.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
He asks for "net" payments. That is code for gift. There is no paypal protection there.
It is always interesting when people comment or start a GB&U thread, it back fires, and they completely out themselves. Gotta love this place!
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There used to be a dealer here that always, tried to make buyers pay him extra for insurance. He didn't even insure the items, just you paid extra to him and he'd supposedly refund you if an item was lost. He claimed too bad if you didn't pay the extra. He also took paypal , so when a knife arrived no insurance after I'd paid him the extra I asked him why no insurance , yet I was charged extra? He got huffy and said, yeah that's right you pay it or else lose it if it's not delivered! I said well you might think that, but you take paypal so it wouldn't work that way. I noticed later he had changed his policy, and was including insurance with the shipping fees. So, it doesn't matter what a seller says, paypal and credit cards no delivery a buyer can get refunded.
Funny stuff KTAGF!
Colubrid, I really think you should add a disclaimer to your sales posts. "Product is not guaranteed to arrive, and you will not be refunded in this case"
I mean, come on, get real!
If you use PayPal, then your very unique and self serving perspective will not matter, as PayPal takes charge and makes the right decision for you. Even if your first instinct is to blame the carrier and expect buyer to bear that loss, good practices will prevail. But why would anyone want to do business with you if you can't guarantee they'll get what they paid for? I would never buy from a seller with this lack of concern for outcomes! Who would, if they knew your policy?
Do you feel the same as a buyer? If you purchase a shirogorov from a vendor and it doesn't arrive, you just shrug and say, "oh well"?
Ya right.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I am not a vendor or knife maker. This is a hobby. As I have been shipping in several "other" hobbies (besides knives). The standard is when the item is accepted by the shipper and tracking is provided the item becomes the buyer has completed.
For business owners, vendors, knife maker or knife brokers a different rule applies and if the knife is lost the business owner either replaces the item or gives a refund.
I have been buying and selling knives here longer than most people. I can tell you amongst most of the long term knife guys on here this is sort of a known thing that unless the buyer asks for extra insurance then the knife will be fully insured.
Now any seller can always fully pay the buyer for a knife they sent them if it gets lost. That is up to them. But from experience and buying and selling a lot with other members here I can tell you unless you want to have extra insurance on a knife you should ask the seller to add the extra amount for full insurance. It is not included into the price of a knife.
This is sorta a double edge sword issue. Most experienced sellers know what I am saying is true but don't want to post on this thread .. Kinda like the Paypal Net vs Friends and Family thing.
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How about an easier analogy:
You buy a knife off of Amazon.com and it never arrives at your door.
Are you just out of luck? I am guessing that most people here would ask Amazon where that knife is and hold them responsible for it's delivery.
If I sell you a knife and it does not arrive to you, I am going to be responsible of my own volition.
The insurance issue has been previously discussed, and in the discussion I remember linking to the USPS site showing that you can insure an item of particular value for greater than the "retail price".
best
mqqn
You buy a knife off of Amazon.com and it never arrives at your door.
Are you just out of luck? I am guessing that most people here would ask Amazon where that knife is and hold them responsible for it's delivery.
If I sell you a knife and it does not arrive to you, I am going to be responsible of my own volition.
The insurance issue has been previously discussed, and in the discussion I remember linking to the USPS site showing that you can insure an item of particular value for greater than the "retail price".
best
mqqn
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- Dec 21, 2013
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- 1,987
So much wrong in one post.
Peter Hartwig
Gold Member
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- Feb 29, 2008
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While not a rule on this forum(but it is on some)-I go by the deal isn't completed until both parties are satisfied. As a buyer I would not be very satisfied if I paid serious money and got nothing in return.
IMO-colubrid, needs a disclaimer, so the buyers know what they are getting in to. Even so if Goods and services is used it will trump his disclaimer.
IMO-colubrid, needs a disclaimer, so the buyers know what they are getting in to. Even so if Goods and services is used it will trump his disclaimer.