Opinion about knives lost during shipping

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I used to work for a guy who shipped glass items all over the USA. Despite our best efforts at packing the items, roughly 50% of the items broke in transit. UPS was just way to rough with the packages. The seller would not allow the buyer to purchase a glass item without insurance, and as a facet of customer service, if a package arrived to the buyer in a broken condition, the seller would reship and file a claim for recovery on the damages. That was a voluntary move by the seller, the law did not require that as the items were shipped FOB shipping point. But the seller understood that his business would not last if he made the buyer go through the claim process before reshipping.
 
So the UCC no longer applies to ecommerce? I missed that memo. Actually I missed congress rescinding the UCC I guess.

Common sense has zip to to with the UCC. And you are patently wrong. If you consider these sale posts "ad's" then the UCC clearly applies.

The seller is responsible for ensuring the package arrives at the common carrier in the same condition it was when the buyer paid for it, unless they agree otherwise. We seem to be following a better set of governing principles here at the forum with most sellers taking the risk all the way to the point of destination.

We agree in principle. I am just pointing out the UCC still exists and we are not following it here per se.


By the way - We had UPS come to the warehouse and SHOW us how to pack the items and guess what - the item broke. UPS eventually refused to ship our glass beakers, so the owner went to plastic ones. I think it is funny that you are going to tell me what I recall, I forgot you were party to the events 25 years ago. :confused:

I believe we are talking about paypal. That is the policy that counts here. If you use goods it is the sellers responsibility to get the item to the buyer. It is the seller that will be out money if the item does not get there. So......the seller should insure said item if he/she cannot afford to lose the item and/or the money.
 
First, the UCC doesn't apply to private sales between non-merchants. Second, even if it did, there is an implied contractual provision in nearly every sales transaction done here of delivery to the address provided by the buyer. In those cases, the risk of loss passes to the buyer only upon delivery to that address.
 
Seev - Don't have to be party to the specific events of 25 years ago - just stated what UPS would normally do in a situation like that and you confirmed they did. My apologies if I offended you in any way with my comments.

Perhaps I should have been more clear about the whole UCC and FOB thing; but my point is this - How many companies would tell a customer that they(customer) would be responsible for ordered items if damage or loss occurs in transit. Yes, none.
Seems like an expected and common practice that the seller is responsible for getting the item to the buyer. You are correct that in some circles - business to business (as you described the Italy machines) is where those terms and negotiations come into play.
They just don't in our little world here or even when we (consumers) buy anything on-line. If you look at this thread, there is only one party who doesn't think the seller is responsible; everyone else does.

Question: Are you saying that if you sold me a knife here; that you would not take responsibility if it get's lost in transit? Would you expect me to eat the loss? Thanks
 
First, the UCC doesn't apply to private sales between non-merchants. Second, even if it did, there is an implied contractual provision in nearly every sales transaction done here of delivery to the address provided by the buyer. In those cases, the risk of loss passes to the buyer only upon delivery to that address.
Yup and I would add that FOB is only covered under the Incoterms (International Commercial Terms) rules, not private sales between individuals on a frigging knife forum.:rolleyes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incoterms
 
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Hmm.... Here's some interesting reading:
http://barnespc.com/news-risk-loss-shipments-governed-ucc.php

Shipment Contracts Are Presumed

In Windows, Inc. v. Jordan Panel Systems Corp., 177 F.3d 114 (2nd Cir. 1999), the Second Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that:


Where the terms of an agreement are ambiguous, there is a strong presumption under the U.C.C. favoring shipment contracts. Unless the parties “expressly specify” that the contract requires the seller to deliver to a particular destination, the contract is generally construed as one for shipment. 3A Ronald A. Anderson Uniform Commercial Code §§ 2-503:24, 2-503:26; see also Dana Debs, Inc. v. Lady Rose Stores, Inc., 65 Misc.2d 697, 319 N.Y.S.2d 111, 112 (N.Y.City Civ.Ct.1970) (no destination contract absent “explicit written understanding” that goods will be delivered to buyer at a “particular destination”).


Indeed, New York Jurisprudence, at § 113, confirms that:



Under the Code, the "shipment" contract is regarded as the normal one, while the "destination" contract is regarded as the variant type, and the seller is not obligated to deliver at a named destination and bear the concurrent risk of loss until arrival, unless he has specifically agreed to so deliver, or the commercial understanding of the terms used by the parties contemplates such delivery.

This does seem to correspond with what seeverscpa is saying.

Now, as craytab pointed out, PayPal's policies/user agreement appears to be slightly different as far as "seller protection" is concerned, and places the onus on the seller to prove delivery.
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#spp-proof-delivery

Whether there's loopholes, precedents, or certain circumstances where risk of loss can go one way or the other, I couldn't really tell you. I'm not a lawyer, and reading through just a few pages of the UCC, PayPal User Agreements, and a couple other applicable articles just about put me to sleep.
If you're a buyer OR a seller, and you don't want to be responsible for a loss under any circumstance, make a specific contract/agreement that both parties involved understand and agree to, and you'll practically be guaranteed against risk of loss should it happen. That's about all I can say "for sure". ;)

Now, personally, I'm probably on the selling end as much or more as the buying end, and out of the 100s of packages I've shipped all over the world, I'm only able to recall maybe two instances where a product wasn't received. In one case, it was ultimately determined that the buyer had put in his old address (his parents house, IIRC) and he was ultimately able to retrieve the package, no harm, no foul, and it was his mistake anyhow. The other case was an item that was lost by the USPS. Everything appeared to be in order, but the package went AWOL. I sent the buyer another (my decision) and ate the loss. A few months later, USPS returned the found package to me, after I had all but forgotten about it, so as far as I'm concerned, it all worked out. Now could I have told the buyer he's out of luck? Possibly, but that's not my style.
 
Yup and I would add that FOB is only covered under the Incoterms (International Commercial Terms) rules, not private sales between individuals on a frigging knife forum.
Doh.:rolleyes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incoterms

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOB_(shipping)

FOB relative to Incoterms are for international shipping only, correct, but it appears there's a slightly different provision for domestic, or at least "North American" shipments, that may still pertain to FOB if I understand correctly (I may not).
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOB_(shipping)

FOB relative to Incoterms are for international shipping only, correct, but it appears there's a slightly different provision for domestic, or at least "North American" shipments, that may still pertain to FOB if I understand correctly (I may not).
FOB under the Incoterms only pertains to commercial sales whether they be domestic or international as I read it.
 
Seller always covers none delivered items. No Question!!!

It has happened to me numerous times
It has happened to a few people shipping
To me

USPS insurance is never worth buying
Its a fraud
I ship knives signature required Always.....

I as a seller have had too take losses of numerous
Hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the years
Ive been involved in BF

My responsibility to make things RIGHT!
 
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Sheesh... Thomas Linton and I gave you the answer. I'm guessing that we've got a combined 75 years of lawyering between us.
 
Extra fees for insurance are the responsibility of the buyer.


I am not in agreement with some posters here saying the seller being responsible. If the knife was shipped and tracking is accurate the buyer is at loss. It is up to the buyer to pay "extra insurance" (beyond the $50 priority insurance) and not the seller. It is also up to the seller to REQUEST to pay extra for insurance. Otherwise it is assumed the buyer takes the risk.

If someone buys a $1000. knife from me i am not paying for insurance $1000. Nor am I calculating it into the price of the knife.
Not that I can afford a $1,000 knife, but to another ignore list you go.
 
Sheesh... Thomas Linton and I gave you the answer. I'm guessing that we've got a combined 75 years of lawyering between us.

I was thinking the same thing. Or Brancron. I'd love to hear what they think of this.
 
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Seller always covers none delivered items. No Question!!!

It has happened to me numerous times
It has happened to a few people shipping
To me

USPS insurance is never worth buying
Its a fraud
I ship knives signature required Always.....

I as a seller have had too take losses of numerous
Hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the years
Ive been involved in BF

My responsibility to make things RIGHT!

USPS has covered my lost knives 3 times. All I needed was the receipt of the ebay transaction and 6 weeks later I had a check, from them, they even refunded my shipping cost.
 
And you were the seller?

Yes, USPS does not take your money for insurance and refuse to pay. They do require that you show what the item was and what you sold it for. (or bought it for) Any receipt will work, even if it was from when you bought the item. They won't pay over the amount of insurance you bought though. But, that's understandable.
 
Seller is responsible, without a doubt. It's the seller's responsibility to deliver on the goods purchased. Pretty black and white really.
 
Only thing the seller can do, is charge for insurance up front. Same as charging for shipping, just roll it all into one price if you want to pass the cost on to the buyer.
 
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